Ukrainian Government Acknowledges that Some of Its Leaders Are Nazis

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: JeanPaul

How can I make it any more clear? I don't support Russia. Your silly binary nationalistic paradigm is absurd and part of the problem.

Absurd is correct. Like unreal.

It provides a platform from which every piece of criticism can be labeled as "Russian propaganda" or "pro Russian" and blame or focus can be shifted by saying "but they did this", like little children do.

Good posts.

Ya, I've noticed that on this site. The intellectual honesty of used car salesmen. Wrapped in some warped nationalist agenda. Putin is Hitler, the USG is unicorn Jesus and the IMF is just an economic doctor prescribing needed medication.

The reality is quite different. The whole lot of them are scoundrels. Picking a side is like choosing between AIDS and cancer. A busted knee cap or a broken arm. Is there a third option? That should be the question.

The third option is incredibly simple Russia removes it's troops from Ukraine and let's those people live their lives. And allow them to make their choices good or bad. Russian politics created this issue they continually tried to control Ukraine instead of treating them as a partner. Russia spent well over what has been spent by NGOs in Ukraine. Russia spent billions the sudden a is the money they spent didn't go to schools or hospitals it went to paying off government officials like Yanukovych. Russia paid him to maintain Russian relations. Problem is it all came out and impeachment proceedings were started. The day before the final decision he runs to his backers in Russia. Russia created this problem instead oh helping Ukraine they have done everything to control them.

Ya, OK, then we'd have to go back in time and stop the USA from pushing billions of dollars into Ukraine and would have to stop all the government funded NGO's from fomenting political dissent (with the goal of subverting Ukraine's political process).

People don't take to the streets demanding IMF loans and austerity. The opposite is true. Any population that supposedly wants to be subjected to austerity has been conned and manipulated.

Acting like the USA hasn't sent billions in funding along with various NGO's is the issue with "pro USA" posters on this site. Both the west (led by the USG) and Russia have been tugging at Ukraine but in my and many other people's opinion the west made the first move via the USA's billions and the NGO's.

It's also quite obvious that the west is pushing Russia's periphery into the EU/NATO. There's an obvious continuation of Cold War policies in play. A sort of continued attempt at Russian containment. Russia, being the imperialist capitalist nation that it is, wants to expand its geopolitical and economic influence. The USA wants to keep Russia from ever having the ability to challenge US hegemony as the USSR once did. Ukraine is a major piece of that puzzle. As was the case with the old Warsaw Pact nations joining NATO.

Do I support any of it? No. I don't support capitalism let alone all the geo strategy employed by various governments in competition with each other. With thousands of nukes pointed in every direction. It's a dangerous game to play and our respective governments hold humanity hostage with this nonsense. Our "leaders" in the USA are crazy. Russian "leaders" are crazy. Many of the businesses/firms they represent are crazy.

This game doesn't benefit our respective populations. The wealth doesn't trickle down. Especially not in the nations being torn apart via proxy war and economic manipulation by World Bank/IMF.

The third option, for Ukraine and many other nations is actual independence. Development without exploitative loans. Development without widespread privatization and austerity. Russia and China both are seeking to mimic the wests exploitative expansion. What we see in Ukraine is competition for control over their economy and resources/productive capabilities. The Ukrainian people will lose with the EU and will lose if Russia brought them into the fold.

I mean, atop of the austerity, privatization/selling off productive capabilities the WTO, Workd Bank and other western development institutions then force "free trade" on these smaller less developed nations. In the EU massive trade imbalances manifest. This benefits nations such as Germany and France. Places like Greece get the crap end of the stick.

The "free trade" aspect could take up a whole new thread. When Britian and the USA developed their massive industrial economies they used protectionism. The WTO,World Bank etc wont allow this with smaller less developed nations. Ha Joon Chang has done a good job of exposing this contradiction in "Kicking Away The Ladder":

en.m.wikipedia.org...

This is just another reason Ukraine will lose with the EU. Alternative paths to development are being attempted in South America, in my opinion Eastern Europian and North African nations should follow. Maybe that's what Gadaffi was planning on doing? You see, there's a larger game being played here not just involving Ukraine.

Edit-typos

a reply to: DJW001

Of course it also allows you to dismiss reports from the "Mainstream Western Media" when they contradict your own narrative....

Like when?

Seems like a kindergarten level "no you suck" comeback.

a reply to: JeanPaul

The US gave 5 billion over 20+ years. In 2013 alone Russia gave Ukraine 15 billion. So why is it you claim the US money fomented unrest while ignoring the fact that Russia has given Ukraine much more?

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: DJW001

Of course it also allows you to dismiss reports from the "Mainstream Western Media" when they contradict your own narrative....

Like when?

Seems like a kindergarten level "no you suck" comeback.

Like whenever someone doesn't like a news story that contradicts their own narrative. Just wait, you'll see an example soon enough.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

The US gave 5 billion over 20+ years. In 2013 alone Russia gave Ukraine 15 billion. So why is it you claim the US money fomented unrest while ignoring the fact that Russia has given Ukraine much more?

Funny that it's only bad because the US did it.

a reply to: JeanPaul

Much as I hate to interrupt your lengthy off-topic indictment of the global economy, I'm still waiting for you to explain how a government that has no members from the Nazi Party, or even members of parties like Svoboda and Right Sector can be a "Nazi" or "fascist" government. Also, how is the "fascism" practiced by Kyiv different from the "socialism" practiced by Qaddafi or Hugo Chavez, who has not relinquished his lifetime presidency even in death?

Do you have anything that contradicts the election results and their aftermath that I posted earlier? I can post it again if you'd like:

In the late October 2014 Ukrainian parliamentary election the party won constituency 6 seats; the party came 0,29% short to overcome the 5% threshold to win seats on the nationwide list.[12] The parties election results thus halved compared with the 2012 election because of negative assessments of the activities of the local governments that included Svoboda members.[113] In its former stronghold Lviv Oblast Svoboda won no constituencies.[113] Also the fact that in this election the party was not the only one using radically patriotic, anti-communist and anti-Russian slogans undermined its election outcome.[113]

On 12 November 2014 the party's ministers in the Yatsenyuk Government resigned (they became acting ministers till a new Government was formed).[14] The parties governors of Poltava Oblast, Ternopil Oblast and Rivne Oblast also resigned and were formally dismissed by President Petro Poroshenko on 18 November 2014.[114]

en.wikipedia.org...(political_party)

It's almost as though the shadow Americans who are really running the show kicked the Nazis out for some reason. Is that even possible?

a reply to: JeanPaul

Ya, OK, then we'd have to go back in time and stop the USA from pushing billions of dollars into Ukraine and would have to stop all the government funded NGO's from fomenting political dissent (with the goal of subverting Ukraine's political process).

So what have you got to say about the 15 billion Russia gave to Ukraine when they decided to not sign with the EU?

President Vladimir Putin agreed the aid package with Ukraine in December, throwing the ex-Soviet state a lifeline in what was widely seen as a reward for a U-turn that prompted protests which persist in Kiev and have been marked by violence.

Russia will turn to its National Welfare Fund for $10 billion, Siluanov told Ekho Moskvy radio on Thursday.

The other $5 billion is coming from special drawing rights (SDRs), a reserve asset created by the International Monetary Fund, he said. Officials had said both sources would probably be used for the bailout, but had not given a breakdown.

www.reuters.com...

That's right it's only bad because the US did it.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

So why is it you claim the US money fomented unrest while ignoring the fact that Russia has given Ukraine much more?

I think the name for that is...Selective Memory.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: JeanPaul

Ya, OK, then we'd have to go back in time and stop the USA from pushing billions of dollars into Ukraine and would have to stop all the government funded NGO's from fomenting political dissent (with the goal of subverting Ukraine's political process).

So what have you got to say about the 15 billion Russia gave to Ukraine when they decided to not sign with the EU


That's right it's only bad because the US did it.

You do a pretty good job of ignoring my posts and quoting what you see fit in order to create a false narrative.

I've said, multiple times, Ukraine would be better off without Russia or the EU. Ive said alternative economic development strategies are possible. Both the west and Russia are exploitative in nature.

Again, I've also said, multiple times, I'm not "pro Russia". What annoys me is the fact many people think the USG is some innocent democracy promoting entity with all the foreign funding and NGO activity. It's done in order to benefit western investors/corporations and this doesn't "trickle down" to the targeted populations nor does it "trickle down" to the majority of people back in western nations.

It's obvious to most people Russia doesn't offer an opportunity for independent development, development that would mostly benefit the Ukranian people- what's not so obvious to many in the west and many Ukrainians is the fact the EU/World Bank/IMF don't offer anything good either but many within the west and Ukraine itself have been conned into thinking the IMF will help the Ukranian people. That EU membership will place them on the path to western Europian type "abundance".

They're going to be host to parasites with Russia OR the EU. Their people will be impoverished even further. Public services will be slashed. Their productive capabilities will be sold off to German, French, British and Anerican investors. The cost of living will go up. Long term trade imbalances will keep them economically dependent on nations such as Getmany/France. Nothing good will come of EU membership and IMF "structural adjustments".

The west doesn't offer independence. This isn't "Russian propaganda" it has been the reality for multiple (less developed) nations across the globe since the end of WW2.

Quote this, Ukraine would not be better off exposed to Russia's economic designs. How many times must I say this? What I've pointed to, multiple times, is the efforts in South America to get out from under World Bank/IMF's thumb. I think Ukranians should take note and tell both the EU and Russia to fight over another nation. To leave them alone. The political movements seeking to join the EU, with loans tied to the World Bank/IMF) are misguided. Mostly via the NGO's and US funding. Russia doesn't offer actual independence either. You need to think outside of the binary paradigm. Alternatives are possible.

This requires funding though. In South America oil revenues have helped. If World Bank/IMF/EU actually offered independence there'd be no issue. Another troubling aspect is the NATO situation. Pushing Russia's periphery into NATO is like Russia/China pushing the Western Hemisphere into a military alliance. Canada, Mexico etc. The USA wouldn't put up with it. It's a continuation of Cold War thinking. Cold War policies end up in proxy wars being waged. More of the same into the 21st century. Both sides are wrong. Both sides are seeking to expand geopolitical and economic power/influence. I reject both agendas. Most people should, especially Ukrainians.

These far right parties are suckers- parading Bandera around. Calling for independence...thinking the EU/World Bank/IMF actually offer such. The rest of the people will regret submitting to the IMF once austerity goes into full effect and once their productive capabilities are sold off. Ukrainians will be left with nothing but low paying jobs and a rising cost of living into the foreseeable future.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

So what have you got to say about the 15 billion Russia gave to Ukraine when they decided to not sign with the EU?

Seems that the legitimate Ukranian government at that time made a deal with them instead of the EU.

That's right it's only bad because the US did it.

It is funny how you are keeping this up.

So you expect your opponent to "admit" that Russia=bad, but you guys will never even consider admitting that America=bad, even though this is the logical viewpoint, using the logic of the above qouted statement.

I have no problem saying that Russia is trying to have control over Ukraine. Are you able to admit that America and the EU want the same thing?

If not, then this whole tactic of whining "it's only bad because the US did it" blows up in your face.

They are either both bad, or both not bad.

a reply to: YouPeople

Nobody has said the US is an innocent entity. However in this case Russia is the aggressor. They have now annexed land in Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine. When was the last time the US annexed any land? That said I guarantee you that everyone that is currently condemning Russia's behavior also condemn the US' actions in the Middle East. Tell me though, why is it okay for Russia to use barbaric tactics to put down a separatist faction (one that actually succeeded as well) but when the Ukrainian government tries to stop their own civil war they're labeled Nazis and fascists?

a reply to: JeanPaul

You do a pretty good job of ignoring my posts and quoting what you see fit in order to create a false narrative.

No I don't, but feel free to show me where that is done.

a reply to: YouPeople

Like whenever someone doesn't like a news story that contradicts their own narrative. Just wait, you'll see an example soon enough.

This is BS. I am talking about how you guys constantly have to yell "but Russia did this, what about that huh? HUH? What do you have to say now huh?", when someone says something that is critical of the West.

It almost seems neurotic.

Totally disinterested in whatever flaws the West may have, 100% focussed on Russia.

Myeah, very smooth.

a reply to: YouPeople

And yet anytime a thread critical of Russia is posted it turns into a bash America thread. But I guess that's okay.

a reply to: YouPeople

Seems that the legitimate Ukranian government at that time made a deal with them instead of the EU.

Did you miss this...

Glazyev, speaking on the sidelines of the discussion, said the exact opposite was true: "Ukrainian authorities make a huge mistake if they think that the Russian reaction will become neutral in a few years from now. This will not happen."

Instead, he said, signing the agreement would make the default of Ukraine inevitable and Moscow would not offer any helping hand. "Russia is the main creditor of Ukraine. Only with customs union with Russia can Ukraine balance its trade," he said. Russia has already slapped import restrictions on certain Ukrainian products and Glazyev did not rule out further sanctions if the agreement was signed.

The Kremlin aide added that the political and social cost of EU integration could also be high, and allowed for the possibility of separatist movements springing up in the Russian-speaking east and south of Ukraine. He suggested that if Ukraine signed the agreement, Russia would consider the bilateral treaty that delineates the countries' borders to be void.

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

"Signing this treaty will lead to political and social unrest," said the Kremlin aide. "The living standard will decline dramatically … there will be chaos."

www.theguardian.com...

Seems RUssia can tell the future as this is what happened exactly. And blackmail didn't hurt either.

It is funny how you are keeping this up.

WHat up? Wondering why there is no outrage that Putin sent 15 billion dollars to Ukraine, so it must be okay correct?

And how can this false hate that America sent them money without taking in the fact that Russia sent them 3 times more than the US...why is it only bad when the US did it...and not bad when RUssia does it?

I have no problem saying that Russia is trying to have control over Ukraine. Are you able to admit that America and the EU want the same thing?

Except the facts are that they want Ukraine to be a sovereign state that is able to decide who they want to do business with and who they want to align themselves with.

If the US wanted control over Ukraine it would have sent lethal military weapons to them, but we didn't and we aren't.

As for the EU...Ukraine applied to be part of them...and that is a very tough set of standards that need to be met before being excepted, so if the EU wanted Ukraine that bad they could have waived the rules and let them join but they didn't so they aren't right now.

If not, then this whole tactic of whining "it's only bad because the US did it" blows up in your face.

Well let's see here...you only complain about something when the US is involved, so obviously that would mean it is only bad when the US does it.

Now since you have no problem with the actions of Russia towards Ukraine and the money they sent...so again it is only bad when the US does it.

See how that works?

And who is whining...I am pointing out the most popular thought by those who think Russia is in the right with whatever they do.

WHich in turn means...

America = Bad

Russia = Good.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

And yet anytime a thread critical of Russia is posted it turns into a bash America thread. But I guess that's okay.

There's the "but I guess that's ok" thing again. So childish and pathetic, and dumb even. I just explained how this approach doesn't work out for you. For it to work you have to admit that your side is wrong too, but you are not doing that, you are just shifting the blame like a 5 year old.

a reply to: YouPeople

This is BS. I am talking about how you guys constantly have to yell "but Russia did this, what about that huh?

Because there is two sides to this, and is it not Russia who invaded Ukraine, took over Crimea, and helped with the unrest in the East by supplying troops and heavy weapons?

So other than that what has Russia done good to help relieve the crisis they created?

What do you have to say now huh?", when someone says something that is critical of the West.

Well hate to burst your bubble, but just because I am an American I say many things critical of the west...so that isn't going to get you anywhere.

Totally disinterested in whatever flaws the West may have, 100% focussed on Russia.

Making assumptions really isn't good for you, because you are 100% wrong.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Well let's see here...you only complain about something when the US is involved, so obviously that would mean it is only bad when the US does it.

Oh I am sorry, how many anti Russia threads was I supposed to support in order to earn the privilige, granted by you folks, to respond to this thread, in the past two weeks since I registered.

Furthermore, I tend to be vocal in the places where there is unbalance. There is no need for me to point out what Russia is doing wrong , because there is a specifc group of posters that already has that locked down like it's their job. Maybe you know them......

See how that works?

You don't seem to know. I already said Russia wants to control the Ukraine. You now have to admit that the US wants the same.

Otherwise your tactic blows up in your face.

a reply to: YouPeople

There's the "but I guess that's ok" thing again. So childish and pathetic, and dumb even.

So is complaining because someone said some words you don't like.

I just explained how this approach doesn't work out for you. For it to work you have to admit that your side is wrong too, but you are not doing that, you are just shifting the blame like a 5 year old.

Why because you say so...okay then.

I have to admit my side is wrong too, except in this case they aren't.

Tell you what my signature says it all.

It so easy to point the finger towards others and to ignore your own wrong doings so you don`t have to deal with them.