Ukrainian Government Acknowledges that Some of Its Leaders Are Nazis

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Making assumptions really isn't good for you, because you are 100% wrong.

Yet you refuse to acknowledge the part that the US and EU are playing in this tug of war. It's geopolitics. Your postitions are always ridiculously naive, childish and one sided. You guys don't even have personality, like you are mere programs.

a reply to: YouPeople

Oh I am sorry, how many anti Russia threads was I supposed to support in order to earn the privilige, granted by you folks, to respond to this thread, in the past two weeks since I registered.

That is solely up to you. As I could care less.

Furthermore, I tend to be vocal in the places where there is unbalance. There is no need for me to point out what Russia is doing wrong , because there is a specifc group of posters that already has that locked down like it's their job. Maybe you know them......

You do understand that there are many many threads discussing this that have had no problems discussing it, but you think we are all ganging up on you, because you don't like what we say about the Russian government, and don't except your narrative on the events in Ukraine...and just so you know I have a day job so this isn't my job.

You don't seem to know. I already said Russia wants to control the Ukraine. You now have to admit that the US wants the same.

No I don't, because you seem to be forgetting the US doesn't have active military troops fighting in Ukraine, although Russia does...so who really wants to control Ukraine more?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I have to admit my side is wrong too, except in this case they aren't.

It so easy to point the finger towards others and to ignore your own wrong doings so you don`t have to deal with them.

Yes, let's look at your signature.

Do I need to say it?

Oh the irony.

a reply to: YouPeople

Yet you refuse to acknowledge the part that the US and EU are playing in this tug of war. It's geopolitics. Your postitions are always ridiculously naive, childish and one sided. You guys don't even have personality, like you are mere programs.

Nobody has said the EU and the US aren't involved, but only the US is in the way of training their military to become a real one, but that can't be said of Russia now can it"?

You see you seem to be staying away from what Russia is and has done to create this crisis in Ukraine, because I guess it is much easier to blame the west than it is to see the reality of what Russia is really doing.

And you have no clue about what your talking about telling others you don't know that they don't have something...now that is childish.

a reply to: YouPeople

Yes, let's look at your signature.

Do I need to say it?

Oh the irony.

What's so Ironic...

the fact that it is true

or the fact you really didn't understand why it was said?

Way to derail this thread into some other direction...good job.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

That is solely up to you. As I could care less.

Well, you did ask me this,

Well let's see here...you only complain about something when the US is involved

Apparently you want me to complain about Russia.

and just so you know I have a day job so this isn't my job.

Thanks for telling me this is not your job. So when did this hobby get out of hand?

No I don't, because you seem to be forgetting the US doesn't have active military troops fighting in Ukraine, although Russia does...so who really wants to control Ukraine more?

Is this your thought process working at full capabilty?

I said they both want to control it. You still cannot admit this. Control exists in multiple forms. So your cop out is that Russia wants it more?

Really? Great argument!

How much % more do they want it do you reckon, and at what percentage does the scale tip between good and bad?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

And you have no clue about what your talking about telling others you don't know that they don't have something...now that is childish.

You may posses personality as a person but not as as a poster. I know you guys as posters. I never see a sign of life. Just "debunkin'".

a reply to: YouPeople

You may posses personality as a person but not as as a poster. I know you guys as posters. I never see a sign of life. Just "debunkin'".

You might want to consider how you, yourself, appear to everyone else. (By the way, you are showing a great deal of self control this time, I'll give you that.)

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Yes, your point being?

Or just a random remark that was directed at me?

Point being in Ukraine the nazis aren't in charge. Now we could argue in other countries in Europe that's not the case. But that would be another thread.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

Seems like Ukraine is violating a treaty they already had with Russia. It seems that the pro Russian regions appealed to Moscow directly.

It´s not like they invaded and took over the whole country.

"For the first time in our history more than 50% of people support European integration, and less than 30% of the people support closer ties with Russia," said Poroshenko. "Thank you very much for that Mr Glazyev."

Looks like a significant part of the population still wants to belong to Russia though. Obviously, this percentage used to be above 50% so it´s not like Russia never had any business there.

Furthermore, it is their backyard.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yet members of nazi parties were in the government, and this was supported by the US and the EU.

They may have been kicked out later, but this doesn´t change the fact that they were put there with the approval of the US.

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: dragonridr

Yet members of nazi parties were in the government, and this was supported by the US and the EU.

They may have been kicked out later, but this doesn´t change the fact that they were put there with the approval of the US.

What makes you think that the presence of Nazis in the interim government was approved either by the US or EU? You seem to think that Ukrainians are incapable of acting without outside guidance and approval. The illegal FSB tape of Nuland discussing her best case scenario for the government's composition did not come to pass, proving that the United States was incapable of steering the course of Ukrainian politics.

a reply to: YouPeople

I'm not sure where you got this quote, but it seems to be an accurate account of Putin's bullying style:

We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

That is exactly what happened. Ukraine made a bid for genuine independence by seeking closer ties with Europe-- and note, that would not dissolve the strong commercial ties with Russia-- so Russia decided Ukraine was no longer a state and intervened. They violated Ukraine's sovereignty by annexing Crimea with a clear conscience because they no longer considered Ukraine a sovereign state. They then sent troops and arms to Donbass after the fascists there appealed to Moscow for help. This is exactly what some of us have been saying all along. Surely now that you've heard it from Glazyev you must believe it.

Oh, and the cherry on top is that yes, absolutely it was blackmail. Even when Putin's Russia makes honest threats it has to lie about something.

a reply to: JeanPaul

Since you have not been able to provide a list of government officials that could justify calling the government in Kyiv "Nazi" or "fascist," nor have you explained your bizarre characterization of that government, with its healthy representation of Jewish individuals in key offices as "anti-Semitic," I conclude that you have realized that the allegation made in the title of the thread is false,and you have chosen to distract from your mistake by steering the thread off topic. Since your silence means that we are now in agreement about the nature of the Ukrainian government, I will turn to one of the key mistakes you are making in your political philosophy:

The third option, for Ukraine and many other nations is actual independence.

This is an interesting statement, and one I agree with. However, the way you use the terms "independence" and "nationalism" show that you either have an idiosyncratic definition of the words, or you have not thought your philosophy all the way through.

First, you seem to equate "nationalism" with "fascism." This explains why you have been so confused about events in Ukraine. Although nationalism is an important element of fascism, fascism is not necessarily inherent in nationalism.

As I presume you know, nationalism is a relatively modern invention. Nations do not exist in nature, they are created by human beings in order to organize society at a higher level than the tribe. The history of Central Europe is an example of what life was like before nationalism and what it became after it was used to create the modern nation-state. The geography of Central Europe was a patchwork of little feudal fiefdoms; these little holdings were not necessarily homogeneous in terms of language or culture, their boundaries shifted arbitrarily based on military conquest and dynastic politics, and communication and trade was difficult even within their borders. As a result, populations often defaulted to the tribal level of organization, resulting in pogroms and religious wars.

Nationalism is the process by which a group of people create a set of shared values and culture that allows them to function as a larger unit; a state. (This is why a political system that places the state above the individual must be nationalistic, but a benign state may be nationalistic without being fascist.) In Central Europe, where religion was potentially divisive, language and folk custom were the safest way of forging a national identity; all of the little duchies that spoke German shared an identity. Eventually, through alliances they became united under Prussia.

In Austria-Hungary, there were many different languages and cultures. The Emperors managed to maintain unity by making federalism the key to nationalism. Diversity and respect became the shared value that united the Empire around Vienna.

We can see what happens when there is no nationalism by looking at what happened in the Balkans after Tito's nationalistic government collapsed. It defaulted into tribalism. Religious group battled religious group; linguistic group battled linguistic group. They no longer shared a concept of nationhood.

This, then, explains the chaos in the Levant and North Africa. The colonial powers, including the Ottoman Empire, never permitted the different ethnic groups inhabiting the region to form a concept of nationhood. They compounded this by deliberately favoring minorities in government to keep their local administrators dependent on the colonial power for their survival.

Nasser understood the need for a strong concept of nationhood, that is why he championed Pan-Arabism and why Egypt has fared better than most countries in the region. Countries like Iraq and Syria were too dependent on personality cults and never developed a shared national vision; this is why they have descended into inter-tribal conflict. The same can be said of Libya.

It is probably your confusion of "nationalism" with "fascism" that has led to your mistaken ideas about Ukraine. Yes, there are many nationalists in power there; it is necessary if Ukraine is going to forge an identity independent of Russia. Ironically, perhaps, in order for you to see your desired goal of an independent Ukraine, you will have to accept the necessity for a project of national identity building; nationalism.

Unfortunately, Russia has been able to twist innocent attempts at creating national unity into what appears to be planned genocide. Yes, many Ukrainian leaders want to make Ukrainian the official language that ties everyone together, but wanting to eliminate the Russian language is not the same thing as eliminating the Russian people! Even so, all but the most rabid chauvinists have agreed that multi-lingualism, like religious diversity, is a cornerstone of the Ukrainian national identity.

As for your economic theories, they are completely off topic and I will not comment on them here.

a reply to: DJW001

I'm not sure where you got this quote, but it seems to be an accurate account of Putin's bullying style:

It was part of a larger qoute that tsurfer posted on the previous page.

Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

That is exactly what happened

What happened is that Ukraine signed a treaty with Russia and then violated it. Parts of Ukraine obviously want to be with Russia and when they approached Moscow for help they intervened.

I never denied that they intervened. They obviously did. They did not invade the whole of Ukraine did they?

Oh, and the cherry on top is that yes, absolutely it was blackmail.

(Geo)Politics are usually not played "nice" by any of the parties.

They then sent troops and arms to Donbass after the fascists there appealed to Moscow for help.

And who are these "fascists" fighting against? Here is an example,

The Azov Battalion (Ukrainian: Батальйон Азов) is a far-right neo-Nazi[1][2][3][4] all-volunteer infantry military unit forming part of military reserve of National Guard of Ukraine.[

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: DJW001

What makes you think that the presence of Nazis in the interim government was approved either by the US or EU?

Well the fact that US ambassador Nuland literally spoke out her approval of nazi party members, for instance.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: JeanPaul

Since you have not been able to provide a list of government officials that could justify calling the government in Kyiv "Nazi" or "fascist," nor have you explained your bizarre characterization of that government, with its healthy representation of Jewish individuals in key offices as "anti-Semitic," I conclude that you have realized that the allegation made in the title of the thread is false,and you have chosen to distract from your mistake by steering the thread off topic. Since your silence means that we are now in agreement about the nature of the Ukrainian government, I will turn to one of the key mistakes you are making in your political philosophy:

The third option, for Ukraine and many other nations is actual independence.

This is an interesting statement, and one I agree with. However, the way you use the terms "independence" and "nationalism" show that you either have an idiosyncratic definition of the words, or you have not thought your philosophy all the way through.

First, you seem to equate "nationalism" with "fascism." This explains why you have been so confused about events in Ukraine. Although nationalism is an important element of fascism, fascism is not necessarily inherent in nationalism.

As I presume you know, nationalism is a relatively modern invention. Nations do not exist in nature, they are created by human beings in order to organize society at a higher level than the tribe. The history of Central Europe is an example of what life was like before nationalism and what it became after it was used to create the modern nation-state. The geography of Central Europe was a patchwork of little feudal fiefdoms; these little holdings were not necessarily homogeneous in terms of language or culture, their boundaries shifted arbitrarily based on military conquest and dynastic politics, and communication and trade was difficult even within their borders. As a result, populations often defaulted to the tribal level of organization, resulting in pogroms and religious wars.

Nationalism is the process by which a group of people create a set of shared values and culture that allows them to function as a larger unit; a state. (This is why a political system that places the state above the individual must be nationalistic, but a benign state may be nationalistic without being fascist.) In Central Europe, where religion was potentially divisive, language and folk custom were the safest way of forging a national identity; all of the little duchies that spoke German shared an identity. Eventually, through alliances they became united under Prussia.

In Austria-Hungary, there were many different languages and cultures. The Emperors managed to maintain unity by making federalism the key to nationalism. Diversity and respect became the shared value that united the Empire around Vienna.

We can see what happens when there is no nationalism by looking at what happened in the Balkans after Tito's nationalistic government collapsed. It defaulted into tribalism. Religious group battled religious group; linguistic group battled linguistic group. They no longer shared a concept of nationhood.

This, then, explains the chaos in the Levant and North Africa. The colonial powers, including the Ottoman Empire, never permitted the different ethnic groups inhabiting the region to form a concept of nationhood. They compounded this by deliberately favoring minorities in government to keep their local administrators dependent on the colonial power for their survival.

Nasser understood the need for a strong concept of nationhood, that is why he championed Pan-Arabism and why Egypt has fared better than most countries in the region. Countries like Iraq and Syria were too dependent on personality cults and never developed a shared national vision; this is why they have descended into inter-tribal conflict. The same can be said of Libya.

It is probably your confusion of "nationalism" with "fascism" that has led to your mistaken ideas about Ukraine. Yes, there are many nationalists in power there; it is necessary if Ukraine is going to forge an identity independent of Russia. Ironically, perhaps, in order for you to see your desired goal of an independent Ukraine, you will have to accept the necessity for a project of national identity building; nationalism.

Unfortunately, Russia has been able to twist innocent attempts at creating national unity into what appears to be planned genocide. Yes, many Ukrainian leaders want to make Ukrainian the official language that ties everyone together, but wanting to eliminate the Russian language is not the same thing as eliminating the Russian people! Even so, all but the most rabid chauvinists have agreed that multi-lingualism, like religious diversity, is a cornerstone of the Ukrainian national identity.

As for your economic theories, they are completely off topic and I will not comment on them here.

Stop quoting my posts. I don't want to have any interaction with you. Not because you've "won" or because you speak the truth, far from it, I won't spend my time "debating" people who are, well, like you. This will be the second time I've expressed a desire to end communications with you.

a reply to: DJW001

You might want to consider how you, yourself, appear to everyone else.

How would that be?

(By the way, you are showing a great deal of self control this time, I'll give you that.)

What would I have said if I hadn't shown this great deal of self control then?

a reply to: YouPeople

Well the fact that US ambassador Nuland literally spoke out her approval of nazi party members, for instance.

You will need to provide a source for thius claim, of course.

a reply to: JeanPaul

Stop quoting my posts. I don't want to have any interaction with you. Not because you've "won" or because you speak the truth, far from it, I won't spend my time "debating" people who are, well, like you. This will be the second time I've expressed a desire to end communications with you.

Fortunately, we live in a society that acknowledges the right to freedom of expression. A corollary of that is that, having expressed yourself, others may quote you. In a free society, debate is used to reach consensus. For all of your rhetoric you seem both unfamiliar and uncomfortable with open debate and discussion. I have set forth many points and you ignore them. I have tried to engage you dispassionately in the hopes that you will either provide evidence for your beliefs or at least consider the evidence that undermines them.

Do you really think others believe that you are serious about detesting fascism when you openly admit to not liking people who disagree with your agenda? Do you honestly believe you are coming across as open minded or interested in the well being of others? Well, I've tried. Good luck changing the world with your angry, narcissistic attitude.