If a woman lies about being on the pill, is it rape by deception?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

I'm not inventing anything. If rape by deception becomes a thing, do you think any other situation would happen? Rape by itself or by anything involves jail time. I see no reason to say that rape by deception would end differently. This is why I've been saying it should be a civil matter and just STAY a civil matter. Lost money is much easier to re-obtain than lost time...

If you don't agree that rape by deception is a thing, then why are you being so contrary with me? You should see that the consequences of this politician getting his way would be disastrous.

Why is everyone arguing about what might happen if it "becomes a thing"?

In the UK (err.. OP, you're a UK poster, aren't you?) it already *is* a thing, it has *been* a thing under various guises for a long time, and people *have* been prosecuted for it.

So, I'm confused why we're bickering over locking the stable door when the horse hasn't just bolted, it bolted so long ago that it's now grown up and has a 9-5 job, 3 kids, and a mortgage.

Oh, ATS.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Nope, she didn't know she was pregnant at that point and when I said I had no condoms she said that's cool, I'm on the pill.
After she realised she was pregnant she admitted to me that she lied.
In fact, I had much respect for her admitting it, she could have continued with the lie and I wouldn't have known either way.

The bottom line is that I only consented to sex that day because she lied to me.

How about not having sex with a person you don't know well and therefore have a lack of trust. Just screwing around for fun doesn't mean there may not be repercussions.

a reply to: EvillerBob

Interesting, so back to the OP, if a woman lies about being on the pill to obtain consent for sex is that currently a crime in the UK?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Let me see if I'm reading this right. Did you just compare fatherhood to prison time?

I know, right? Speaking as the father of two girls, prison time would have been so much easier, there really is no comparison.

so how does one go about proving that the other was lying? since some lawmaker wants to make it a legal issue, I imagine that some method has to be made as to how do you prove it??
now if you wanted to nit-pick anybody who says they are protect from pregnancy is lying since there is no method that is 100% effective. women have been told by their doctors that there is no way that they can concieve a child and well, low and behold, there's the child! men have had vasectomies and believed they were protected. and well, there's the babies. women have gone through monopause and believed they couldn't have babies, and well there's the baby!!! so well, there is really no way that one can say that they are protected, they are all lying if they do.

and well if the women happens to forget a pill that day and tells you before she notices, is she lying? what about the man who says not to worry, I will pull out before that happens and then doesn't. did he lie?
things could get quite personal and quite messy and well, it seems to me that the one making the accusation should be the one to prove his accusations which would be kind of impossible. just like it would be for a women to prove that she accidentally forgot a pill and didn't deliberately forget on purpose in hopes of trapping a man.

a reply to: roadgravel

Oh please with the sensible moral lectures, can we stick to the topic of deception to obtain consent for sex.
Take your sidetrack elsewhere.

a reply to: grainofsand

I'm of chief, this is silly.

Good luck.

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: Woodcarver

I think that the Op was to discuss the social and moral implications in general and the Op's story was used as an example only.

I saw that. It did not go over my head. My point is that his story is a bad example to use, because it does not fit any criteria for his proposed question.

I then proposed a more suitable scenario about a guy who lies to a girl, saying he has a million bucks in the bank. The girl feels this would make him a suitable and stable partner. She has sex and gets pregnant, only to find out he lied. Does he go to jail?

a reply to: grainofsand

No, no rape that is ludicrous, lying is one thing, but rape? that is to far, BTW I became pregnant with my second child while on the pill, surprise!!!!!!! it happens, but I was also married to his father.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: roadgravel

Oh please with the sensible moral lectures, can we stick to the topic of deception to obtain consent for sex.
Take your sidetrack elsewhere.

I don't care what people do but there can be consequences. Everyone wants to blame someone else. No morals to it.

a reply to: nonspecific

Haha, no worries man, I might bail soon as well, getting like facebook here lol

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe
I don't think it qualifies as rape myself.

38 years ago a woman was on birth control pills and found out 3 months into a pregnancy that she was pregnant. She had not missed a pill, nor taken any medication that would make the pill any less potent for its purpose.

As I'm typing to you, that baby that was a surprise and born 3 months early was me.

So no. I don't see it as rape as the only way to be 100% sure that no baby will enter this world is abstinence or have it at such an old age that it's impossible to get pregnant.

It was a dirty, foul, despicable thing she did to you of course, but still not rape IMO. As there was still a chance she could have gotten pregnant had she originally been telling the truth. I'm living, breathing proof that "oopsies" can and do occur even when precautions are taken correctly.

That is not the point at all.

A accident is a accident. Your mother took the pill, your father knew she took the pill so she did not lie about anything. That is a completely different scenerio compared to a woman who intentionaly lies about having taken birth control in order to convince you to have sex with them in order to have a baby or be able to claim that the baby is yours because of that.

If a woman lies to a man about birth control telling him that she took it only to later lay claim on him because of the pregnancy ,knowinlgy and wqithouth his consent there in i will MOST certaintly call that rape.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Why is my story not an appropriate example?
I only consented to sex when someone lied to me that they were on the pill.
If she had told me the truth that she was not I would not have consented.
What do you see wrong with that exactly?

a reply to: marg6043

But had you lied to him about your birth control?

That is the question raised here not the effectiveness of various birth control methods.

a reply to: grainofsand

As per the Assange incident(that I imagine most here have not looked into.)

This means that you can pretend to put on a condom, slip it off and impregnate a lady and take no responsibility for your actions.

Sounds reasonable to me.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: EvillerBob

Interesting, so back to the OP, if a woman lies about being on the pill to obtain consent for sex is that currently a crime in the UK?

I would say so. If you've made it a requirement for consent. In fact, I would suggest that lying to someone isn't enough, it has to be a lie told in order to get something that wouldn't be available if the truth were told, which inherently includes the defendant knowing that.

Where it gets a bit wobbly is when you have to show that you were making it a condition. If you just asked "are you on the pill?", that's arguably different to saying "I'm not bestowing you with the gift of my mighty seed unless you are taking adequate contraceptive precautions." The first is an enquiry, the second is a requirement.

a reply to: EvillerBob

Well it's being discussed in the states now. I don't have personal knowledge of the goings on in the UK. I mean, I am under no illusions anyways. I KNOW that making this illegal will result in jail time for people and families destroyed by the government.

a reply to: grainofsand

I going to tell you what I tell my son now a grown man "always carry protections with you even if you are not looking for sex at that given time, the pill is not as reliable as you think

a reply to: nonspecific

...it is interesting that so many folk here are ignoring the clear deception.
Again, if the girl had told me the truth I would not have consented to sex, any other issues about contraceptive effectiveness is irrelevant.