If a woman lies about being on the pill, is it rape by deception?

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: grainofsand

Theres plenty of "horror" stories about men who claimed to be airline pilots or such like to gain sexual advantage.

The really interesting one is the undercover policeman who infiltrated an activist group and entered into a sexual relationship with one of the female members to gain creedance.

Now that's somthing I do not think anyone can agree is not a form of rape.

I had thought of that horrific undercover cop story as well it really was terrible, that is the extreme end of the scale for sure, but deception solely to obtain consent for sex is deception, no matter what the lie is.

a reply to: Wetpaint72

How so?
I only consented to sex after being lied to.
Had I been told the truth I would not have consented.
Your reasoning is lame.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Oh go back and read the OP fella, you clearly do not understand it.
The topic is about obtaining consent to sex through deception. Everything else you are pulling out is invention and silliness, although you do mildly amuse me so I shall not ignore you yet.

a reply to: Woodcarver

This thread is about the concept in general??????

It says so right at the very beginning!

Why do you not grasp this premise?

Concept in general, not the op's particuar story.

Edit:Op beat me to it. see above also.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

I have posted a scenario about a guy lying to girl about having money to get sex. Should that guy be considered a criminal? Or should she have checked some facts.

According to R v Linekar, it's not rape.

Admittedly there were some peculiarities in that case, but it's one of the few cases I can recall off the top of my head so I thought I'd try to sound clever by throwing it in...

a reply to: nonspecific

Lol, it was only a question as well, I made no assertions

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Wetpaint72

How so?
I only consented to sex after being lied to.
Had I been told the truth I would not have consented.
Your reasoning is lame.

I was replying to that post. Not you. Your reasoning is lame. 100% chance that you won't get pregnant if you're pregnant.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
You didnt get her pregnant!!

How did she wrong you?


a reply to: grainofsand

I dare you to say that to a female rape victim...

originally posted by: Wetpaint72

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Wetpaint72

How so?
I only consented to sex after being lied to.
Had I been told the truth I would not have consented.
Your reasoning is lame.

I was replying to that post. Not you. Your reasoning is lame. 100% chance that you won't get pregnant if you're pregnant.

She didn't know she was pregnant so that kind of invalidates your point, but hey

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Wetpaint72

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Wetpaint72

How so?
I only consented to sex after being lied to.
Had I been told the truth I would not have consented.
Your reasoning is lame.

I was replying to that post. Not you. Your reasoning is lame. 100% chance that you won't get pregnant if you're pregnant.

She didn't know she was pregnant so that kind of invalidates your point, but hey

But hey... Wasn't even talking about you. Post said the only 100% ins to not have sex...I was adding or "already be pregnant, but hey.

a reply to: Wetpaint72

That's cool.
So what are your thoughts about a woman obtaining consent to sex by a man through deception?

originally posted by: Wetpaint72
I agree with this...except the fact that she was already pregnant, which I would think is the only 100 % contraception. That little fact throws a wrench in OP argument.

This has no bearing whatsoever. It makes no difference if he said "you need to be on the pill" or "you need to be wearing clown shoes". He set a condition; the person lied and said that it had been met.

The victim might have a fetish for women who take oral contraceptives; the risk of pregnancy might not factor into it at all.

Also, talking about wrenches in the argument, we're told that the woman didn't know she was pregnant at the time. UK law gets a bit messy when discussing "when is a lie not a lie" but I'll gloss over that for now. It's more fun sniping little comments than writing big long essays

Rape is not as they would put it, but an act of violence. And such laws really do nothing more than to make life more difficult and control people.

Rape by deceit, that is one of the biggest exploitable laws out there and unfortunately if it was ever passed, would cause more problems than it would help. The courts are going to have to look at such cases and the “Victims” would have to be willing to sit and be cross examined by the attorneys and justify said charges.

Take the Op’s question and point about the boy and girl. The first question that an attorney would ask is this: Why did you not use a condom? Another question would be: Were you aware that even a woman on the pill, there is always a chance that it may not work and she would still get pregnant? And they would present statistics on the failure rate of such. Another question would be: How does one prove that they are taking the pill or is on contraceptive that prevents such? Would it not be both persons responsibility to take precautions against having children?

The reality is that we all lie to prospective persons who we are interested in. Some tend to boast of deeds that they may have or may not have done. Others would state their life is grander than what it is and so on to get a prospective person interested in them.

Ultimately this law is going to not go too far, cause it is attempting to legislate human behavior to which the west is not really prepared for or can deal with.

a reply to: EvillerBob

She knew she was not on the pill when she told me she was though, admitted it to me when she found out she was pregnant. A complete straight out lie.
I would not have consented had she told me the truth.

a reply to: grainofsand

so are you saying that you support this law since it might help men who've been tricked by women who lie about birth control get out of the resposnibility and maybe get justice? just wondering here because I also see my example of the kid with his daddy's car as fitting into the requirements for that law, and well, to me, it would probably be the worse thing to happen to young men! probably turn so many more into "rapists" for just acting like the young men that they are.

originally posted by: Hecate666
It sure is deception but it is certainly not 'rape'. You have been duped, tricked, cheated; but nobody forced you to have sex without consent.
I find this OP a little tasteless as it puts rape on par with conning.
One is an actual attack on your body, a violation of the worst kind, the other is a pain in the ass but nothing that might not turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you - unlike rape.

There are different kinds of rape. Not all rape is violent. Deception can definitely be a form of nonviolent rape. The girl wanted to get laid, so she deceived a man into having sex with her when he otherwise would not have. Basically, a condition for sex was set, and that condition was betrayed.

How can you blame the victim while condemning rape? This kind of thinking is rapes go unreported; some asshat comes along and says, "nah, I don't think that's rape, shame on you for trivializing *real* rape!"

a reply to: sdcigarpig

It is pretty much the charge that Julian Assange is up for in Sweden.
The woman (allegedly) only consented to sex if he used a condom, and he (allegedly) tricked her by not putting one on, or pretending to. The complaint was made after the sex had finished and she realised she had been deceived.
The legal concept is the same as the OP as far as I see it.

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: Wetpaint72
I agree with this...except the fact that she was already pregnant, which I would think is the only 100 % contraception. That little fact throws a wrench in OP argument.

This has no bearing whatsoever. It makes no difference if he said "you need to be on the pill" or "you need to be wearing clown shoes". He set a condition; the person lied and said that it had been met.

The victim might have a fetish for women who take oral contraceptives; the risk of pregnancy might not factor into it at all.

Also, talking about wrenches in the argument, we're told that the woman didn't know she was pregnant at the time. UK law gets a bit messy when discussing "when is a lie not a lie" but I'll gloss over that for now. It's more fun sniping little comments than writing big long essays

Kinda where I was going with the wrench statement. If there was no pregnancy there would be no story at all. Right or wrong on her part, I'm still debating.

The whole argument is out of my element. There are very few absolutes in life. But getting pregnant while pregnant may be one of those.

It may be that anyone who's ever had sax has been lied to. Large or small lies, unless you met this person in a nudist colony after a month of no hygiene.

Your breath doesn't naturally smell minty, and we all have BO.

a reply to: dawnstar

I'm in two minds about the legislation, but as previously mentioned by others in the thread there are already examples of convictions in the UK where consent for sex has been obtained through deception.
Extreme examples of course, but generally I do support laws which punish folk who deceive others for gain.

a reply to: grainofsand
And I mean no harm. I'm sorry you were lied to. Just be careful.
People lie.