The Ban On Transgender Individuals In The Military May Soon Be Lifted

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: crazyewok


My understanding is that there is a high suicide rate among the trans-gender community and I was thinking the same thing on how the psychological test would play on this.

Also I find it interesting with all the recent talk and support of the trans-gender community, but hardly any mention of hermaphrodites who probably have it equally difficult if not more?

This is a fair point. It's because those who are physically intersex are rarer even than those of us of trans history. Often the I gets dropped from LGBTIQ for the same reasons.

Generally those who are intersex support those of us who are trans and vice versa. Really it's starting to seem as though the two conditions are actually the same one but a matter of degrees and manifested in different ways.

I'm assuming that hermaphrodites never been an issue in the military and their is no ban on them as well?

I have no idea.

Perhaps its time we stop taking little steps and just accept everyone for who they are as long as they don't hurt others.

I agree. It's just easier said than done in practice.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincessso if you want to run along and pretend that you were born any different than I then you are free to do just that.

Um can i give you some friendly advice.. please don't say that. like i said, i don't think anything negative about you because you could pretend to be male longer than Ekron or I. so please don't use that against us. we aren't pretending to have been born any differently than you. we just have a different perspective than you because in Ekron's case she worked for much of her life in what she calls the "pink collar ghetto". And in my case i grew up as a girl socializing with other girls.

So yes we -are- different because -our experiences are different-. You spent a lot of time around guys. I don't hold that against you but please can you maybe try to see it from our point of view? A point of view which I might add, you may end up sharing over time after SRS.

None of us is any better than the other.

Oh ok so now I'm saying inappropriate and disparaging things towards my own community. Do you see how it feels now?

Please understand that I was not intending to say anything disparaging. These are difficult issues and I was trying to illustrate how cis and cisnormative society would see the issue of someone who is in-between either pre-op or non-op wanting to join the military.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincessso if you want to run along and pretend that you were born any different than I then you are free to do just that.

Um can i give you some friendly advice.. please don't say that. like i said, i don't think anything negative about you because you could pretend to be male longer than Ekron or I. so please don't use that against us. we aren't pretending to have been born any differently than you. we just have a different perspective than you because in Ekron's case she worked for much of her life in what she calls the "pink collar ghetto". And in my case i grew up as a girl socializing with other girls.

So yes we -are- different because -our experiences are different-. You spent a lot of time around guys. I don't hold that against you but please can you maybe try to see it from our point of view? A point of view which I might add, you may end up sharing over time after SRS.

None of us is any better than the other.

Oh ok so now I'm saying inappropriate and disparaging things towards my own community. Do you see how it feels now?

Please understand that I was not intending to say anything disparaging. These are difficult issues and I was trying to illustrate how cis and cisnormative society would see the issue of someone who is in-between either pre-op or non-op wanting to join the military.

And again when ANYONE points out that I disgust or make them uncomfortable I will say they make me uncomfortable and throw up fingers.

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: NavyDoc

You are avoiding the issue here. All women are given the option of free birth control in the military. Providing hormones to trans service members is not much different.

I remember about a month ago in a discussion, I asked you several times if you would support trans service members and you never gave me an answer.

At least I have an answer about the trans service members, though it came from those higher up the ladder than you Captain.

I'm not avoiding the issue. I answered this quite clearly. There is a difference for providing an elective medication that one can stop without ill effect and having a chronic medication that one must have. If the supply chain can't get a female member's birth control to firebase whatever in Afghanistan, not a big deal, assuming that's all she is using it for. If someone needs hormone replacement therapy to maintain their body, there can be ill effects.

And it's more than just a simple birth control--that's being disingenuos. First of all, higher doses are needed for feminization of features. You need (for the transgender woman) both and estrogen and an anti-androgen. Spirolactone is the only FDA approved anti-androgen at the moment. With it comes hyperkalemia and dehydration as it is a diuretic. Hyperkalemia can cause cardiac dysrythmias. Abrupt cessation can cause severe hypokalemia.

Finsitride to prevent hair loss. Progesterone some times for mood, libido, or breast development.

Abrupt discontinuation of replacement hormones can have some pretty devastating potential side effects both physiological and psychological. There is a whole slew of case studies and case law with HRT withdrawal in the transgender populaiton in prison. Since I know you won't accept just any articles, I'll link to an article from a trans advocate group that is fighting to make prisons maintain HRT in transgender prison population. NCL rights org
Because of these effects, the NCL rights group is fighting to keep HRT ongoing, and in the rights of medical care for the prisoner.

Given all of this, HRT is not currently not compatible with military service because you need members who are deployable in potentially austere conditions. We don't need more people to fill non-deployable billets because those are already filled and the fewer and fewer people who don't need chronic medications have to go out more and more often.

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

I like your backbone. Nevertheless, I really don't think Jade meant any ill will. She doesn't strike me as that sort of person. So I suggest everyone apologize and hug and make up.

a reply to: NavyDoc
Spironolactone can also cause blood clots leading to pulmonary embolism.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: NavyDoc

Then perhaps you can explain this, because this is your statement that I've been working from:

originally posted by: NavyDoc
Shrug. I think it points out that even transgender people have their prejudices and hangups which sort of indicates that non transgender people shouldn't be criticized for theirs if you guys have the same issues between each other.

Which my point is: No. It does not indicate that.

So the discomfort that non-transgender people may feel is acceptable to you then?

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: NavyDoc

Maybe they won't be in combat arms. The article said they are taking their time figuring this out. So it remains to be seen what they can and cannot do within the military.

I was denied as a straight male entry into the Royal navy college for simply haveing clinical depression.

Now seeing as many trans have a high rate of such disorders I expect there application denial rate to be high, unless they lower standards.

Which, given the political climate and the DOD response every time something along these lines come up, is the most likely scenario. Already the USMC is pressured to lower standards because no females have passed officer infantry school.

Same thing with the UK army front line infantry.

Women cant pass the test for it but there is political demand to lower standards so women can serve on the front line.


As you stated the military job is to fight and win not play political correct games.
Its all fun and games until a war breaks out and one of the people who you lowered standards for either gets killed or someone else killed.


I have freinds in the royal marines dreading such changes as they dont want "dead weights". As my mate said, they have such a high success rate due to the extremly high standards.

I accept my clincal depression made me ineglible to become a officer in the RN. Its sad but I agree that some people with clinical depression could be a risk. I accept that limitation.

I think other groups need to accept there limitations too.

LOL. You should have done what every other depressed person in the Navy does. Don't take meds but drink instead and don't mention it to anyone.


(Kidding)

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: NavyDoc

You are avoiding the issue here. All women are given the option of free birth control in the military. Providing hormones to trans service members is not much different.

I remember about a month ago in a discussion, I asked you several times if you would support trans service members and you never gave me an answer.

At least I have an answer about the trans service members, though it came from those higher up the ladder than you Captain.

I'm not avoiding the issue. I answered this quite clearly. There is a difference for providing an elective medication that one can stop without ill effect and having a chronic medication that one must have. If the supply chain can't get a female member's birth control to firebase whatever in Afghanistan, not a big deal, assuming that's all she is using it for. If someone needs hormone replacement therapy to maintain their body, there can be ill effects.

And it's more than just a simple birth control--that's being disingenuos. First of all, higher doses are needed for feminization of features. You need (for the transgender woman) both and estrogen and an anti-androgen. Spirolactone is the only FDA approved anti-androgen at the moment. With it comes hyperkalemia and dehydration as it is a diuretic. Hyperkalemia can cause cardiac dysrythmias. Abrupt cessation can cause severe hypokalemia.

Finsitride to prevent hair loss. Progesterone some times for mood, libido, or breast development.

Abrupt discontinuation of replacement hormones can have some pretty devastating potential side effects both physiological and psychological. There is a whole slew of case studies and case law with HRT withdrawal in the transgender populaiton in prison. Since I know you won't accept just any articles, I'll link to an article from a trans advocate group that is fighting to make prisons maintain HRT in transgender prison population. NCL rights org
Because of these effects, the NCL rights group is fighting to keep HRT ongoing, and in the rights of medical care for the prisoner.

Given all of this, HRT is not currently not compatible with military service because you need members who are deployable in potentially austere conditions. We don't need more people to fill non-deployable billets because those are already filled and the fewer and fewer people who don't need chronic medications have to go out more and more often.

To be fair and honest I think the issue with HRT and prisons is just people without the means trying to force the state to pay for a treatment they want. I think they ramp up all that withdrawal crap which brings me back to its all in your head.

a reply to: NavyDoc

As TrappedPrincess said, fingers all over the place. If cis-people don't like it, they can just arrange being somewhere else.

originally posted by: Mousygretchen
a reply to: NavyDoc
Spironolactone can also cause blood clots leading to pulmonary embolism.

Sure. As can progesterone and estrogen--which is why transgender women are HIGHLY encouraged not to smoke as the chance of DVT with both onboard skyrockets.

a reply to: NavyDoc

I couldn't agree more, just waiting for the "there are many facets of the military" argument implying there are jobs they could be put into. Which opens a Pandoras box of inequality of which positions they can hold. Changing your physical make up is a choice any adult can make. And like any other choice there will be ramifications. I agree our society needs to be open minded and jobs in the private sector shouldn't discriminate, but the military is a team of people who need to be in good consistent physical condition. For instance, certain medical conditions can make you not be eligible, one prominent one being ADD and ADHD (a whole other topic as that is over diagnosed). People's life's are at stake and I'm sorry if I'm not ready for political correctness to take Full root there. We have made strides and I'm proud of that, just think maybe were rushing this one as it is a new science and new form of humans. Again I don't want to sound closed minded or like a bigot but I'm trying to look at this objectively and if I was a soldier I would have concern in this.

a reply to: Kojiro

There's a high suicide rate among transgendered people because of situations in their lives preventing them from being who they are, or even persecuting them for who they are. After years of being beaten down and feeling disgusted by your own body, a dirt nap is likely to look pretty inviting.

Note I'm not disagreeing with you, that acceptance surely has an impact with those results but there has to be also some profound psychological effects with not being happy with your identify not matching your outer self. I didn't make the comment as a negative connotation but rather curiosity on how it will pan out.

If you aren't happy with yourself and can't come to terms with yourself no amount of acceptance is going to help you. As you said if you are disgusted by your own body thats got to create some psychological problems to deal with.

As for your use of the word "hermaphrodite," please stop. The proper term is intersexed. There are no true hermaphrodites in the human race.

Will do , it appears that that term is no longer the preferable terminology. So I stand corrected, learn something new everyday.

www.nlm.nih.gov...

Intersex

Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries).

The older term for this condition, hermaphroditism, came from joining the names of a Greek god and goddess, Hermes and Aphrodite. Hermes was a god of male sexuality (among other things) and Aphrodite a goddess of female sexuality, love, and beauty.

Although the older terms are still included in this article for reference, they have been replaced by most experts (and patients and families) because they are misleading, confusing, and insensitive. Increasingly this group of conditions is being called disorders of sex development (DSDs).

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Mousygretchen
a reply to: NavyDoc
Spironolactone can also cause blood clots leading to pulmonary embolism.

Sure. As can progesterone and estrogen--which is why transgender women are HIGHLY encouraged not to smoke as the chance of DVT with both onboard skyrockets.

Which is exactly why I stopped smoking, I loved smoking it was relaxing but I wanted HRT more and did not want the added risks of bloodclots

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

I would not dimiss navydoc.

The endocrine system can be a fickle unpredicatble thing.

Not really my area of biology but I do know that there are risks and navydoc isnt scaremongering.

a reply to: interupt42

Realize that I meant the body that transgendered are assigned with by birth. I've seen a lot come to love themselves again after they've been able to live as themselves.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincessso if you want to run along and pretend that you were born any different than I then you are free to do just that.

Um can i give you some friendly advice.. please don't say that. like i said, i don't think anything negative about you because you could pretend to be male longer than Ekron or I. so please don't use that against us. we aren't pretending to have been born any differently than you. we just have a different perspective than you because in Ekron's case she worked for much of her life in what she calls the "pink collar ghetto". And in my case i grew up as a girl socializing with other girls.

So yes we -are- different because -our experiences are different-. You spent a lot of time around guys. I don't hold that against you but please can you maybe try to see it from our point of view? A point of view which I might add, you may end up sharing over time after SRS.

None of us is any better than the other.

Oh ok so now I'm saying inappropriate and disparaging things towards my own community. Do you see how it feels now?

Please understand that I was not intending to say anything disparaging. These are difficult issues and I was trying to illustrate how cis and cisnormative society would see the issue of someone who is in-between either pre-op or non-op wanting to join the military.

And again when ANYONE points out that I disgust or make them uncomfortable I will say they make me uncomfortable and throw up fingers.

So you're saying that we can not discuss being uncomfortable for fairly valid reasons? I never said you disgusted me i just said that i'd be a little weirded out if a woman like you were not discrete about what you have down there in a facility full of other women.

I would be fine showering with you if you didn't you know show it.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Mousygretchen
a reply to: NavyDoc
Spironolactone can also cause blood clots leading to pulmonary embolism.

Sure. As can progesterone and estrogen--which is why transgender women are HIGHLY encouraged not to smoke as the chance of DVT with both onboard skyrockets.

Which is exactly why I stopped smoking, I loved smoking it was relaxing but I wanted HRT more and did not want the added risks of bloodclots

And that's the thing. It's one thing to say "it's no big deal" when you are at Pendleton with NNMC Balboa down the street but quite another when you are on a sub and you can't even surface for months or on a mountaintop in Afghanistan for the better part of a year or doing relief work for months in the swamps of Malaysia or sub-Saharan Africa.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Spriolactone is crap, in my opinion. It is a water pill that is meant to treat high blood pressure that has anti androgen side effects among many other non desirable ones.

Hopefully they will decide on cyproterone or something else(dont know their names off the top of my head) as T-blocker for transwomen military members. No one in Europe prescribes spirolactone for HRT. The US medical system as a whole still has some catching up to do with the rest of the developed world.

Finasteride is not needed if someone is already on androgen blockers, besides dutasteride has been shown to have much better results for hair loss.

I am pretty sure that women have the option of taking birth control pills continuously while on deployment to prevent the menstrual cycle.

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: NavyDoc

Spriolactone is crap, in my opinion. It is a water pill that is meant to treat high blood pressure that has anti androgen side effects among many other non desirable ones.

Hopefully they will decide the cyproterone or something else(dont know their names off the top of my head). No one in Europe prescribes spirolactone for HRT. The US medical system as a whole still has some catching up to do with the rest of the developed world.

Finasteride is not needed if someone is already on androgen blockers, besides dutasteride has been shown to have much better result for hair loss.

I am pretty sure that women have the option of taking birth control pills continuously while on deployment to prevent the menstrual cycle.

"Pretty sure?" Or sure? I have to ask how many deployments you've been on.

Even so, abruptly stopping them will result in...a period. Not a big issue.