6 Ways Christians Lost This Week: And A Thank you to the Christians who Won

originally posted by: works4dhs
No. Our world view is Bible-based. The Bible clearly and consistently says homosexuality is a sin.

Clearly? Is that so? Because a lot of your 40,000+ denominations (which intrinsically mean none of you agree on anything in the bible). In fact, a lot of members here on ATS would disagree with that statement.

Doesn't seem very clear at all.

originally posted by: works4dhs
I have never heard anyone in any church describe gays as 'lesser beings' or any similar description.

The funny thing about language, is that you don't need to literally say things without implying some other meaning.

Do you honestly believe that when a person says to kill gay people, or that they are formed of Satan, or that they are not worthy in the eyes of god, or anything else, that that really doesn't imply that they are lesser than those who make those statements?

When someone says "Homosexuals should not have the right to marry", sure it sounds somewhat innocent enough to say so. It means that homosexuals are not equal to heterosexuals. And when someone declares someone else is not equal to them, it means that they are really saying they are lesser in some way or another.

originally posted by: works4dhs
I am not seeing any hate directed at gays. I'm sure there are some outliers around (Westboro, who are supported by absolutely no one in any church I know of).

Yes, you're right. It does seem that the only people who can see the hate are those who are either inflicted by it, or outside of the situation all together. Certainly those who are saying the hate cannot themselves see their own actions.

originally posted by: works4dhs
I've been in multiple churches in multiple parts of the country since the 1970s, and I have never, ever, not once, heard anyone suggest gays were inferior, or that hatred (or violence) directed against them is at all acceptable. Never. not once. Anywhere.

Perhaps you should open your mind a little instead of agreeing with everyone who makes the claims I've listed before?

a reply to: mamabeth

I have to correct myself on this one.My native ancestors were not
in that area they were in the carolinas,sorry for any misrepresentation.

a reply to: Ghost147

I did understand and it didn't go over my head.I am not the one
going on and on and on about HATE,try looking in a mirror to
see who keeps preaching about hate.

The only thing I keep going on and on and on about is that I can
not accept gays right to marry.It is YOU and OTHERS LIKE YOU
who keep saying my feelings and beliefs are hate based.

I am not going to waste anymore of my time on you and the
others' on this site.I have more important issues that need my
attention and this topic is a time waster.There will never be any
solution just me leaving you people to your fate.
Please, enjoy this victory you worked so hard for,it will be short-lived.

originally posted by: works4dhs

originally posted by: Ghost147
Let's analyze this, shall we?


It is pretty clear that many Christians were outraged by the legalization of same-sex marriage. There was vandalism, cursing, hysteria, rage, and a ton of hate.

source? I sure haven't heard any of this.
plenty of indirect 'Christians are hating' but no direct examples (except for the aforementioned Westboro outfit.)

Believe it or not, but the Westboro Baptist Church isn't the sole cause for all things negative in Christianity or religion.

Burning of Gay Pride Flag

catholic leader cardinal keith obrien blasts gay marriages plan as madness

Scores of people from all over the world have shared with me their devastating stories of exclusion and isolation, of unanswered prayers to change, of destructive conversion therapies, of repeated suicide attempts, and of being actively and passively driven from faith, by people of faith. This is the reality of church theology on homosexuality.

...The Church’s treatment of the LGBTI community people has been downright sinful, and it’s killing our testimony to the world.

This is a quote from a pastor (of which I have much respect for)

Anti-gay marriage protesters clash with riot police in Paris

Christians Threaten Civil Disobedience If Supreme Court Approves Gay Marriage

Christian Pastor Promises To Set Himself On Fire If Gay Marriage Is Legalized Nationwide

Christian couple threatens to divorce if same-sex marriage becomes legal


If you really have yet to see what christianity can do to people who are different than them, you are far more delusional than I can ever imagine a person can be.

originally posted by: mamabeth
a reply to: Ghost147
Please, enjoy this victory you worked so hard for,it will be short-lived.

Short lived? The number of nations that legalize same sex marriage is growing, with the latest victory for rationality and tolerance being in your very own country, Education is growing, and religion is shrinking. I think that victory will be pretty darn long.

Goodbye

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: works4dhs
No. Our world view is Bible-based. The Bible clearly and consistently says homosexuality is a sin.

Clearly? Is that so? Because a lot of your 40,000+ denominations (which intrinsically mean none of you agree on anything in the bible). In fact, a lot of members here on ATS would disagree with that statement.

Doesn't seem very clear at all.

originally posted by: works4dhs
I have never heard anyone in any church describe gays as 'lesser beings' or any similar description.

The funny thing about language, is that you don't need to literally say things without implying some other meaning.

Do you honestly believe that when a person says to kill gay people, or that they are formed of Satan, or that they are not worthy in the eyes of god, or anything else, that that really doesn't imply that they are lesser than those who make those statements?

When someone says "Homosexuals should not have the right to marry", sure it sounds somewhat innocent enough to say so. It means that homosexuals are not equal to heterosexuals. And when someone declares someone else is not equal to them, it means that they are really saying they are lesser in some way or another.

originally posted by: works4dhs
I am not seeing any hate directed at gays. I'm sure there are some outliers around (Westboro, who are supported by absolutely no one in any church I know of).

Yes, you're right. It does seem that the only people who can see the hate are those who are either inflicted by it, or outside of the situation all together. Certainly those who are saying the hate cannot themselves see their own actions.

originally posted by: works4dhs
I've been in multiple churches in multiple parts of the country since the 1970s, and I have never, ever, not once, heard anyone suggest gays were inferior, or that hatred (or violence) directed against them is at all acceptable. Never. not once. Anywhere.

Perhaps you should open your mind a little instead of agreeing with everyone who makes the claims I've listed before?

I can't figure out how to multi-quote so here goes.
1) 2000 years of church doctrine universally held homosexuality as sin. most still do. there are always some well-meaning operations who readily compromise God's word and truths for man's acceptance. But just for the sake of argument let's say only one single church opposed gay marriage, based on their interpretation of the Bible. Are they wrong because they are a minority? Do they not have a right to live according to their sincere beliefs?
2) "Do you honestly believe that when a person says to kill gay people, or that they are formed of Satan, or that they are not worthy in the eyes of god, or anything else, that that really doesn't imply that they are lesser than those who make those statements?" my point is NO ONE IS MAKING THESE STATEMENTS (except those Westboro types). you should not say things like this without a source.
this is not about any individual being better than any other individual--we are all equal at the foot of the cross. it's the sinful lifestyle we disapprove of, not the person.
3)"Yes, you're right. It does seem that the only people who can see the hate are those who are either inflicted by it, or outside of the situation all together. Certainly those who are saying the hate cannot themselves see their own actions." Again, what hate? do you have a source for all this alleged anti-gay hate?
the pizza restaurant that refused to cater the gay wedding (in accordance with their beliefs) is being sued and fined for $135,000. do you consider this lawsuit, and punitive damage, to be hateful?
(source)
insider.foxnews.com...

originally posted by: works4dhs
I can't figure out how to multi-quote so here goes.

All you need to do is hit the quote button to respond to someone's post. Then Copy the code at the very top of the box that opens, it should look like this:

~quote~originally posted by: ~post=19556572~works4dhs~/post~

But replace the ~~ with ][. Then go to where you want to stop the quote and place this bit of code to let the program know where the quote should end ~/quote~

So when I did your post right here, this is what it looks like

~quote~originally posted by: ~post=19556572~works4dhs~/post~
I can't figure out how to multi-quote so here goes.~/quote~

...Blah blah blah, here's my text.... (then on to the next quote)

~quote~originally posted by: ~post=19556572~works4dhs~/post~
1) 2000 years of church doctrine universally held homosexuality as sin. ~/quote~

And there you go!

I'll have to respond to the actual content in your post later, about to eat

originally posted by: Ghost147
According to the star-count between the two opposing sides, it looks like the more tolerant members have the largest backing, just like the recent vote to legalize same-sex Marriage.

The article I mentioned in the beginning of the post really opened my eyes to just how badly many religious people are acting. Especially when their faith preaches tolerance, love, forgiveness, and that their god is the only one who can truly judge someone.

It was a 5-4 vote, so it wasn't that big

And yes, there are some in the religious community that are jerks, a-holes, and some that just may be bigots. However, liberalism talks about "love wins" and tolerance all day long and yet I have seen more bigoted statements from the LGBTQQ community these past couple weeks than I have in a long time. As if the SCOTUS decisions emboldened some in the community to be jerks and bigots, or maybe to say how they really feel about christianity. Christians aren't perfect, and neither is anyone else.

The main problem is that the definition of tolerance has changed over time. "The old view of tolerance assumed that (1) there is objective truth that can be known/ 2) various people, groups and perspectives each think they know what that objective truth is and (3) as people/groups disagree, dialogue and debate their conflicting views of the truth, everyone involved will have an opportunity to learn, grow, change and possibly arrive together at the truth." Basically we could have a civil discussion, and in the end agree to disagree, I could disagree with your political views, lifestyle, whatever, and you disagree with mine, and we could still be friendly and have a beer.

But today that has all changed in this PC world. "The new tolerance is different from the old tolerance. The new view of tolerance assumes that (1) there is no objective truth that can be known; (2) various people, groups and perspectives do not have the truth but only what they believe to be the truth and (3) various people, groups and perspectives should not argue and debate their disagreements because there is no truth to be discovered, and to assume otherwise only leads to needless conflicts and prejudices." Now I am bigoted right out the gate for having convictions and having strong opinions. It's not so much that I can disagree with you but be your friend, New Tolerance says I have to agree with you, validate you, accept you and your opinion as valid, and pat you on the back and promote you. New tolerance says if you are not 100% for me, you are against me, new tolerance does not appreciate opposing views. ***quotes from Mark Driscoll***

Dictionary.com defines bigotry as: "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own." This might as well be the definition of New Tolerance

a reply to: Ghost147

4) We lost the opportunity to show how big God is.

Some Christians want so badly to accept everything as ok, news flash there is a line, and God can't cross it, others have tried to get him too in the past.

Take into account at face value Abraham discussion with God on Sodom & Gomorrah.
It's the only time in the bible, a human actually went into negotiations via discussions directly with God, Abraham was God's friend and friends discuss matters openly. Abraham pleading with God reminds us of how some Christians have responded to this issue. And I know they mean well, just like Abraham did.
But we know the end result back then, and we know what it will be in the future, we don't get to judge, and outrageous judgmental statements aren't productive either, but we do reflect on God's previous judgments, Christians today ignore them at their own peril.

a reply to: Ghost147

You would think God would want his message to be clear and suitable for everyone's understanding.

Clear perhaps but certainly not suitable.

Prejudice stems from ignorance. Ignorance from fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger is the trait of the Neanderthal man.

atheists demanding, condemning and harassing christians for doing the same to gays

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is stupid, completely stupid

I detest atheist fundamentalists just a little less than christian fundys but in some cases its the same abhorrence I feel for both.
This thread is one of those.

"Hey Look those people are acting stupid, lets act stupid in defiance. "

Well done

I need a good facepalm meme with Mr Dawkins about here

Anyone?

a reply to: Ghost147

Glad i clicked on this. I read the title and thought it was going to be from one of those confused fake-Christian, anti-American types who thing we should legislate to impose the religious beliefs of the majority on all. While they may style themselves as the True Christians and Real Americans, i consider them to be the minions of Anti-Christ, with an agenda to impose a fascist-theocratic government upon us.

Thank you for the thread. The gay marriage legalization was, imo, a win for real Americans, true Christians, lovers of freedom, and of course, gay Americans (except for the tax penalty of course.)

a reply to: borntowatch

Take note that the article in the OP was BY A CHRISTIAN!

Let's take a look why Atheist condemn the actions of some Christians?

~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when people are intolerant to others for no reason other than an unsubstantiated belief.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when people make claims about others that have no bearings on the reality of the situation.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when others' rights are stripped or prohibited due to an unsubstantiated belief.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when misconceptions about the reasons behind a persons actions are thrown every which way, and when a person shows how those misconceptions are incorrect, that individual still refuses to accept the facts.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike it when others judge other people despite those other people having a perfectly naturally occurring trait.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike it when people belittle other people for the sole purpose of an unsubstantiated belief.

So on and so forth.

The only people who cannot see that these factors exist are the people who commit them. Go back to your close-minded safe place where no external information is allowed to penetrate it so you can save yourself from the reality of the world around you and hold onto your delusions.

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: borntowatch

Take note that the article in the OP was BY A CHRISTIAN!

Let's take a look why Atheist condemn the actions of some Christians?

~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when people are intolerant to others for no reason other than an unsubstantiated belief.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when people make claims about others that have no bearings on the reality of the situation.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when others' rights are stripped or prohibited due to an unsubstantiated belief.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when misconceptions about the reasons behind a persons actions are thrown every which way, and when a person shows how those misconceptions are incorrect, that individual still refuses to accept the facts.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike it when others judge other people despite those other people having a perfectly naturally occurring trait.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike it when people belittle other people for the sole purpose of an unsubstantiated belief.

So on and so forth.

The only people who cannot see that these factors exist are the people who commit them. Go back to your close-minded safe place where no external information is allowed to penetrate it so you can save yourself from the reality of the world around you and hold onto your delusions.

Take note that the article on ats is being spread by none christians.
Can it cause anything but animosity anger separation and an us and them mentality. Fundies condemn gays and then atheist fundies condemn the christian fundies actions.
Hypocrisy, you are no better than those you condemn

and all those dislikes you mention are common to your opinions, from you to everyone of your threads when it comes to discussing christianity. You spout them in every thread I read from you

Seriously cant you see your own hypocrisy

I know homosexuals who are just as bad as christian fundamentalists, also know a few atheists who hate gays for no apparent reason.

You dont care about them

You are as closed minded as those you condemn, you are just as righteous and self aggrandising as the fundy christians. Its just you are an atheist

You are just as prejudiced as those you vent against, cept those you vent against are today's acceptable targets. You are no different than those you attack

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: borntowatch

Take note that the article in the OP was BY A CHRISTIAN!

Let's take a look why Atheist condemn the actions of some Christians?

~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when people are intolerant to others for no reason other than an unsubstantiated belief.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when people make claims about others that have no bearings on the reality of the situation.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when others' rights are stripped or prohibited due to an unsubstantiated belief.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike when misconceptions about the reasons behind a persons actions are thrown every which way, and when a person shows how those misconceptions are incorrect, that individual still refuses to accept the facts.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike it when others judge other people despite those other people having a perfectly naturally occurring trait.
~ Atheist's/rational people dislike it when people belittle other people for the sole purpose of an unsubstantiated belief.

So on and so forth.

The only people who cannot see that these factors exist are the people who commit them. Go back to your close-minded safe place where no external information is allowed to penetrate it so you can save yourself from the reality of the world around you and hold onto your delusions.

Take note that the article on ats is being spread by none christians.

You bet it is! Because when you have all these fundamentalists running around driving their beliefs down peoples throats, it's refreshing to see some people from the same belief acting in such a respectful manner, a manner in which us "non-christians" would expect from people who want to follow Christ's example.

It's unfortunate the the loudest Christians are also the least christ-like.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Can it cause anything but animosity anger separation and an us and them mentality. Fundies condemn gays and then atheist fundies condemn the christian fundies actions.
Hypocrisy, you are no better than those you condemn

Right, because when someone belittles another person, we should just sit there idly and let them go at it.

originally posted by: borntowatch
and all those dislikes you mention are common to your opinions, from you to everyone of your threads when it comes to discussing christianity. You spout them in every thread I read from you

Example? Because the one's where I directly ask a question about Christianity, it's not belittling them, it's really asking about something I do not know.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Seriously cant you see your own hypocrisy

Not without an example, I can't.

originally posted by: borntowatch
I know homosexuals who are just as bad as christian fundamentalists, also know a few atheists who hate gays for no apparent reason.

I'm not suggesting that Homosexuals or Atheists don't have those individuals. However, I see a lot more of those negative individuals populate Christianity than either Homosexuals or Atheists.

originally posted by: borntowatch
You dont care about them

I do care, because it looks bad on the group. However, it isn't a big issue because the ratio in which those attributes I listed for Christians is far lower in Atheists and Homosexuals.

originally posted by: borntowatch
You are as closed minded as those you condemn, you are just as righteous and self aggrandising as the fundy christians. Its just you are an atheist

Example?

originally posted by: borntowatch
You are just as prejudiced as those you vent against, cept those you vent against are today's acceptable targets. You are no different than those you attack

You like to skip your record a lot, care to actually back your claims?

You bet it is! Because when you have all these fundamentalists running around driving their beliefs down peoples throats, it's refreshing to see some people from the same belief acting in such a respectful manner, a manner in which us "non-christians" would expect from people who want to follow Christ's example.

is the world a better place with anti-Christian bigots running around driving their beliefs down peoples' throats?
can the left declare victory now that gay marriage is constitutional without forcing pizza shops and bakeries to support their agenda? if they put up signs saying 'we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason' will they be legally covered? has the aclu ever sued a store for refusing to serve a shirtless person? (no shirt, no shoes, no service)
no one denies that a handful of westboro-types are reacting hatefully to all this, but they are a drop in the bucket. the vast majority of Christians are willing to live and let live.

originally posted by: works4dhs
is the world a better place with anti-Christian bigots running around driving their beliefs down peoples' throats?

I assume you're referring to Atheists, because "anti-christian" could mean a lot of different things. Most atheists aren't anti-religious in any way, so your claim would be irresponsible to include them in the first place. Additionally, Atheism isn't a belief system, so it would be pretty difficult for them to be doing any shoving at all considering they have no beliefs.

originally posted by: works4dhs
can the left declare victory now that gay marriage is constitutional without forcing pizza shops and bakeries to support their agenda?

The victory goes to rationality and tolerance, it really doesn't have anything to do with a particular group in the first place.

Many Christians dislike a lot of different people, actions, traits, or what have you, in accordance to how they individually perceive the bible's teachings. There are already anti-discrimination laws within the US that prohibit a business to discriminate for a number of different reasons. All that has been done is add one single trait to the already wealthy list of traits that people are not allowed to discriminate against.

Again, this wasn't the doings of a particular group, this is just a matter of society getting out of the mindset of unsubstantiated hate and ignorance, and progressing into a more rational and tolerant society.

originally posted by: works4dhs
if they put up signs saying 'we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason' will they be legally covered? has the aclu ever sued a store for refusing to serve a shirtless person? (no shirt, no shoes, no service)

No shirt, no shoes, no service isn't discriminating anyone, it is simply enforcing a simple level of standard.

originally posted by: works4dhs
no one denies that a handful of westboro-types are reacting hatefully to all this, but they are a drop in the bucket. the vast majority of Christians are willing to live and let live.

Why do you always revert to the Westboro Baptist Church? The actions that have been taken by some Christians were a very typical mindset of some CHRISTIANS. Jeez, you're worse than those who deny the connection between Hitler and christianity. Always trying to find a way out of the embarrassing actions taken by your own kind.

Get over it. Some people use the bible as a tool to project their hate and insanity, some others use it as a tool to express their love and tolerance. It's all the same bible in the end, so get over it.