Abortion and why it's wrong

a reply to: tigertatzen

actually, I was trying to point out that our society seems to be demanding that women take their financial security into their own hands, and well it seems to me that the conservative right have done their part in making this happen, so don't gripe now if these women are making hard choices to ensure that they have that financial security! Not when the alternative seems to be ending life as a penniless, homeless, widow. which I have a feeling is where many of those stay at home moms and low wage moms are gonna end up if the breadwinner of the family dies before they reach social security age and they don't have the means to earn a decent wage and the family failed to save enough because their finances were drained by taxes to the extent they are!
but what you wrote was very good!!!

a reply to: tigertatzen

I just had to reply to this real quick.

I will probably get crucified for divulging this... but i work at a church. I am a parish administrator. I handle all the contributions, bulletins, bills, ordering any and everything the church needs, etc. I see the bank statements, because I print out the paychecks of everyone who works here and so on, I can say that not all churches are what you describe. I have no doubt that there are some unscrupulous pastors and churches but I know that there are many that do so much for the community. Every penny that this church does not spend to keep the doors open and the heat and ac on is put back into the community. The church votes on the salary of each of the employees and what the church does with any money after that. Just a few of the charities and community services that we are involved in are:
1) LICS (Lexington Interfaith Community Services) local community service that provides food, clothes and financial assistance to those in need ( we give roughly $4000 in offerings a month and once a month we volunteer at the actual location.
2) Snack Snack- We provide lunches to kids who are on the free lunch program at schools. We provide lunch during the summer and on weekends. We donate to this once a week (monetarily and with food donations)
3) We have a school in Uganda for children in a village that had no school to attend. Recently it was burned down and all the stuff was stolen. The guard who stood in front of the school was shot and killed. We are rebuilding.
4) Operation Christmas Child- Every year
5) We take a once a month offering to fight World Hunger.
6) We have a fund that is for Disaster Response. We sent funds after the earthquake in Nepal for example.
7) We help the community directly when someone calls or needs financial assistance.
8) Built wells in Dominican Republic for villages.
9) Habitat for Humanity
10) Relay for Life
I could continue but I just want to clarify that there are many churches that actually do practice what they preach.

a reply to: Seamrog

No person is expected to follow an unloving, immoral demand of another. It sounds like you chose badly when you picked a husband and a church. Not much I can do about that.

She just finished telling you that her husband passed away at the beginning of the year, and yet you have the audacity to suggest that her dead husband was in some way unfit and that her religious practices are somehow inferior to yours? Because she posed a hypothetical question to you? I hope no one is standing in your immediate vicinity when that lightning strike hits you...it's sure to be a doozy at the rate you're going. Hijo de madre....

Why don't you answer the question instead of side-stepping it by attempting to subvert another human being to make yourself feel superior? Isn't your halo slipping off a bit? In the case that an "unloving, immoral demand of another" is made, what is a woman to do? Are you going to give us your number to call in case of such a demand, to help find a solution? Offer your home and food and money to a woman so that she can pay for the resulting offspring? Or are you just going to continue to pretend that you actually care about life at all so that you'll have more fodder for your sermonizing?

a reply to: amberinsc

Always uplifting to hear some good news! I know there are plenty of churches doing good work and using their offerings primarily to assist those they can. Unfortunately, they get overshadowed by these mega-churches with acres of buildings, billions in tax free profits, and a preacher who is just a prosperity self help a-hole with little to no connection to God.

a reply to: tigertatzen
to be fair, I don't think I had posted that part of my story before she answered me with that..
the thing is though,
that command in the bible is pretty danged clear and well historically the meaning is quite clear, and yet she is so quick to water it down and alleviate women of the obligation.

the idea that a newly concieved fetus isn't supported in the bible anywhere, matter of fact I do believe that it says that life begins at the quickening (when you first feel the movement.
and yet when it comes to abortion, they don't seen to follow the same advice..

No person is expected to follow an unloving, immoral demand of another

and they seem to be giving out some pretty danged unloving, immoral demands of another!
expecially when they sidestep some of the greater issues that will cause women to seek an abortion! the inability to be able to walk becomes "sore feet" is a good example of this!

a reply to: amberinsc

Why would you be crucified for divulging that? There is nothing wrong with working at a church. I may not share your beliefs, but I do respect them, and I would hope that is true of everyone else as well. My mother is a christian. And when I say that I have personal experience with the uglier side of organized religion, I am very serious about that. I know that conversely, there are good, faithful followers of religion out there. I am one of them...just not the same religion as perhaps most people around me. But I take my beliefs just as seriously. I know that not every church is guilty of not practicing what they preach, and I certainly do apologize if that is the message that I sent...it was not my intention at all, nor do I feel that way. I am a very blunt person, and sometimes can sound curt and dismissive without meaning to.

The problem that I have is with those who have one standard for themselves and a totally different one for others, such as several who have posted on this thread, and unfortunately many throughout day-to-day life. Part of my business proceeds go toward helping people (primarily women, children and animals) in need, and I see a lot of really horrible stuff in the course of rendering that aid. A lot of stuff that never should be happening in the year 2015 in the United States. I am sure you see a lot of the same, working in a church.

There is a place for religion, and societal issues are not one of those places. Our society is diverse, and that is not being respected in this instance. And a lot of the bad stuff I see is a direct result of that lack of respect and common courtesy. So I speak out against that imbalance...just as I do anything else that is unfairly tipping the scales one way or the other.

I have a great respect for justice, even though there is a historical lack of it in our society, and this is unjust...vilifying women for making a painful decision that is theirs alone to make, without giving adequate consideration to the fact that they are an individual with inherent rights too, regardless of their ability to harbor new life in their womb. If they were not human beings with rights just like everyone else, they'd be incubators. Slaves. But they're not, and should not be relegated to that distinction when they're pregnant, as if they've ceased to exist as a separate human being. That is a deeper issue than anything religion has the power to quantify...religion is a choice, too. Being a human is not.

a reply to: tigertatzen

I do not intend this as an insult, but I think you have some mental issues, and I'm refraining from replying to your rants.

It would be best if you took the same approach with me.

Thanks!

a reply to: tigertatzen
that's funny, I've been reading most of your posts, and I didn't see any sign of mental problems. so sorry to hear..
please take my advice and stay off the meds that some might want you to be on...
or you will probably develop some pretty nasty mental problems!!!

a reply to: dawnstar

Ahh, yes perhaps you had not already explained that before the comment was made. Sorry...I certainly was not trying to speak on your behalf either!! Just knee-jerk female solidarity response, totally my bad if I in any way offended.

Someone else actually posted scripture from several different books of the bible (and I believe, other texts) where it is actually mentioned that termination of a pregnancy is allowed in certain circumstances...this is not something that is a new concept, speaking from a biblical standpoint. But that was summarily dismissed (or ignored) too, as is every other reasonable argument being presented.

The biggest frustration for me personally is that it doesn't matter how many viable, valid arguments are made...nothing will ever be good enough because the religious issue is just being manufactured and as such, is open to interpretation...the argument will never end because the parameters keep being altered to ensure that the balance remains tipped in favor of the ones concocting the argument in the first place. But regardless, we keep trying to get through to people because it is the right thing to do, the human thing to do. At least maybe we can show women who are being persecuted in this way that they are not alone out there. That their opinions and rights do matter.

a reply to: dawnstar

Right...I will try to avoid those pesky mental problems as much as possible!!! Funny how that is always the last ditch effort of people who seek to discredit an intelligent challenge to their position on something...they cannot argue rationally, so they jump straight to "Oh, well I disagree with you and have no good reason why, so you must be mentally unstable. Uhhh because...Jesus!"

It's ok though...like my Granny used to say, if they're picking on me, they're leaving someone else alone, right? Yeeeahh buddy!

a reply to: tigertatzen
no offense here..

I understand your frustration. Everytime a valid argument is made, it is sidestepped or in some other way ignored and they proceed on their happy little way trying to portray women as selfish, self-serving whores who just can't keep their pants on. and well to see some of the results of their efforts could bring we only need to look at countries in in latin america where parents have to fight in courts to save their daugters lives, or ireland when even if the fetus is dead, you might be denied an abortion, or poland where not even the loss of one's sight was considered a justifiable reason. or well, a little closer to home??
well....
www.alternet.org...

a reply to: dawnstar

Omg...wow. I know that preposterous things are done in the name of "preservation of fetal rights", etc...but honestly, some of the stories in your link just made even my jaded jaw drop open in shock. That is truly appalling and quite frankly, frightening...that a woman's basic human rights can legally be subverted by complete strangers like that.

This is the kind of thing that people supporting the views of the author of this thread are trying to impose on women everywhere. It is complete subversion, enslavement...there is no doubt about it. I sincerely hope that none of the proponents of this kind of barbarism ever gain a foothold in a position of real power, because the implications of such an occurrence are nothing short of monstrous.

originally posted by: December21st2012
nothing wrong with a bit of abortion here and there. Cant see how America has any right to protest anyway while they still have the death penalty and the indutrial economic prison complex. Just total hypocrisy.

I always find it funny how so many "pro lifers" support the death penalty. Talk about a walking contradiction.

People always just feel a need to control other people's lives and force their worldview onto them. Christians have been doing it for thousands of years. It's the same with every issue for them. We believe XYZ, so you must make laws to protect our views instead of letting people make their own decisions. It's like that for abortion, the teaching of creationism in school, gay marriage, etc etc. The opposing view is always, let the people decide for themselves, while the religious view is always, "Let's force our belief system on everyone." It gets old.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

a reply to: Skywarp

Welcome to ATS!!

Really. You are more than welcome here.
We need as many thinkers as we can find.

I second that!!! Bring all your friends over to the dark side too!! We have cookies!! And stuff!!

a reply to: tigertatzen
oh and then there's this one....

20 Years in Prison for Having a Miscarriage - Is Our Country Going Nuts?
www.alternet.org...

In fact, the charges themselves are contradictory and reveal the desperation of a state that is intent on criminalizing pregnant women. A jury deliberating for just five hours convicted her on two counts: feticide, for killing the fetus before it was born, and negligence, for killing it after it was born. Clearly it cannot be both—and yet Patel was convicted of both.

I would love to see the women in this country take the right's words to heart and just refuse to have sex. They can point to stories like these and tell their partners that it just isn't worth the risk. I bet the song the right sings would change a great deal if that were to happen!

a reply to: dawnstar

Wow...I am in shock, seriously. Not that it happens...which is bad enough that anything like that should seem "ordinary" in any way. But that they get away with things like this, constitutionally. That is absolute madness! The owner of the boutique I manage is an attorney and one of her specialties is family law. I cannot wait to get her take on all of this...this goes wayyyyyy beyond just a women's rights issue. This is a humanity issue, straight up. I am absolutely floored. Gobsmacked, in fact.

a reply to: TechUnique

You should definitely NOT get an abortion then.

If you want to prevent abortions, then you'll need to make sex education and birth control so commonplace that there's no questions left about the repercussions of unprotected sex.

originally posted by: TechUnique
a reply to: GENERAL EYES

I'm pretty sure out of 125,000 abortions a day not even 5% of them are due to 'valid' reasons. I don't know this for sure but 125,000 a day is a LOT.

If that are indeed unwanted chjildren you'd better be glad they were aborted before being born. Have you any idea what it does to a child to feel unwanted? To feel guilty for being alive, to see disgust and hate in the eyes of its parent(s)?

If these children weren't aborted we'd have an additional 125.000 unwanted children born EACH DAY. Any idea what it would mean to the human race if roughly an additional 45 million UNWANTED children were born each year - children that weren't happy, weren't loved, were at best tolerated, at worst beaten and mistreated?

I can sympathise with your sentiments - but leave these very hard decisions to the mothers and show some respect. They have a hard time as it is.

originally posted by: usernameconspiracy
JEEBUSS!!!!!!!

If you don't agree with something, just don't do it. Live and let freaking live!

Don't agree with abortion - don't have one.

If people spent a lot more time worrying about their own spiritual path and final destination, and a lot less time trying to tell everyone else how to walk that path, we'd all be a whole hell of a lot better off! Don't worry about my soul, it's just fine and dandy. Worry about yours.

Don't agree with pedophilia? Don't molest children.
Don't agree with racism? Don't discrimate against other races.
Don't agree with genocide? Don't participate in the killing of ethnic groups!
And to paraphrase another poster on this thread: don't agree with slavery? Don't own slaves!

Live and let live!

Now, the kind of logic you're promoting does work in most situations. I would argue that gay marriage falls into that category of if you don't agree with it, don't marry a member of the same sex.

But when OTHER people's lives are being taken, and other people's rights are being infringed--for the sake of the perpetrator's rights, that is severe INJUSTICE. The path of my spirit wouldn't be content with silencing my outrage against injustice. I may not be able to change anyone or anything, but I'm damned well going to try.

a reply to: ForteanOrg


You don't have any kids, do you?