Abortion and why it's wrong

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Seamrog

speaking of the "natural law", I am disappointed you never came back and answered my question in the other thread. hung around all night for it..

I'm sorry - I took my kids to the pool last night and didn't think for two seconds about this website. I'll look for it later today and respond.

a reply to: Seamrog
oh, well it's buried in pages of posts, so maybe I should make it easier for you...and ask you here...
the answer that is often heard, many times from believing christians is that if you don't want the kids, don't have the sex. but well, when I read the bible, I get the impression that wives have been commanded to obedience, in all things, and as such do not have this option if they want to be obedient to their god. to me, what you seem to be doing is telling them to disobey god. so well you said I am terribly uneducated and informed me that I must of missed the second part of that...
ya know the part that says that the husband should love his wife as god loves the church...
no, I didn't miss that part, I knew it was there but also know that man's love isn't as perfect as Christs. sometimes they falter, sometimes they can be a bit selfish so I asked you just what does the bible suggest a women do when such a thing happens?

a reply to: Seamrog

That said, it is NO SURPRISE that you can, and do, equate human life with cattle, insects and bacteria. I however, do not.

Oh!? You didn't qualify your statement, so, what you meant to say was:

EVERY human life has a right that you cannot trump.

Still, it's an incorrect statement. Human life is easily snuffed out and so it can be trumped, by other humans, and every other facet of the natural world that you can imagine, including the dangers of pregnancy.

I have done prison ministry for both adult men and adolescent boys. I no longer do it because I have young children and I am obligated with them. When they get older, I will likely return to it.

Don't care. You "ministry" credentials don't give you the right to tell others how to live their lives or what their priorities should be.

I'll bet you call your posting here your "ATS Ministry", but what you minister is not salvation or love. Your ATS ministry is like a street corner "Hell fire and damnation" preacher who preaches dogmatic justification, spreading division, shame, hate, alienation and everything that is the opposite of what a "ministry" is supposed to represent.

Jesus' ministry wasn't about condemnation, but yours is.

originally posted by: windword

Human life is easily snuffed out and so it can be trumped, by other humans, and every other facet of the natural world that you can imagine, including the dangers of pregnancy.

Yes - the slaughter of a million babies a year in abortion mills testifies to this.

You totally missed the point - again.

Every life has a RIGHT.

That the powerful crush that right goes without saying - another point you missed.

I'm simply pointing out the moral character flaw of those who celebrate it.

a reply to: tigertatzen

The word consequence may sound harsh but I think you are picking apart what I say just to do it. The definition of consequence is "a result or effect of an action or condition." Consequences don't have to be bad. But yes a potential consequence to sex is pregnancy.

a reply to: Seamrog

There you go again with your outrageous hyperbole! LOL

Who says every "life" has a right? Not your Bible! Your Bible condones and advises murder and abortion!

a reply to: Seamrog
there was this women I once met, she was mentally ill but could at least live semi-independently if she was on her meds. occasionally though she still ended up institutionalized because of it. somehow she became pregnant while she was. the state force her to have an abortion since the meds would have really messed up the developing fetus. I am sorry to tell you this, but this lady did not celebrate that abortion!! she still grieved it years later, and felt very wronged by the state that forced it onto her.
of that million, I wonder just how many would be in a similar situation as this women was, they would have loved to have had a baby, but the meds they were on were just not safe for it to develope properly?
and then there are those who are found to be in danger if the child is carried to term. gee, I imagine alot of those would have loved to have the baby also.
but, oh ya, they all went out after the abortion and tied one on at the local bar celebrating their new found freedom!!!

originally posted by: dawnstar


just what does the bible suggest a women do when such a thing happens?

Do you want me to cherry pick a verse for you like you have done, and apparently members of your church have done, or do want a sincere answer?

Let's assume the latter.

No person is expected to follow an unloving, immoral demand of another. It sounds like you chose badly when you picked a husband and a church. Not much I can do about that.

I would look to the tenth chapter of Luke for your answer:

It happened once that a lawyer rose up, trying to put him to the test; Master, he said, what must I do to inherit eternal life?

Jesus asked him, What is it that is written in the law? What is thy reading of it?

And he answered, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with the love of thy whole heart, and thy whole soul, and thy whole strength, and thy whole mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

You are not loving God if you allow someone to use you for sex with no regard for the children that may follow. You are not loving the person you allow to use you - we are called to lead each other to God, and allowing your husband to rut like a dog simply because he is a bit selfish is not a legitimate excuse to murder a baby.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Seamrog
there was this women I once met, she was mentally ill but could at least live semi-independently if she was on her meds. occasionally though she still ended up institutionalized because of it. somehow she became pregnant while she was. the state force her to have an abortion since the meds would have really messed up the developing fetus. I am sorry to tell you this, but this lady did not celebrate that abortion!! she still grieved it years later, and felt very wronged by the state that forced it onto her.
of that million, I wonder just how many would be in a similar situation as this women was, they would have loved to have had a baby, but the meds they were on were just not safe for it to develope properly?
and then there are those who are found to be in danger if the child is carried to term. gee, I imagine alot of those would have loved to have the baby also.
but, oh ya, they all went out after the abortion and tied one on at the local bar celebrating their new found freedom!!!

Why are you arguing in absurdities?

Of the sixty-some odd million babies who have been murdered in abortion clinics here in the US, how many of those do you suspect were due to rape, or incest?

How many do you suppose were done as a matter of convenience?

Or for fear of fat ankles?

Your mentally ill friend should have suspended her meds until the child was delivered. The man who raped here should spend the rest of his life in prison.

Next absurdity please....and keep ignoring the 59,999,999 murdered children so we can keep this game going.

a reply to: Seamrog
elsewhere it says that one should pray for the husband and have faith that God will change his heart!!!
and that verse is directly connected to husband/wife relationship...
and I have to ask...
did the christians of old love god when they allowed the lions to tear apart their children then?

a reply to: Seamrog
oh so you admit that the number that might fall in my category is that large??
and you also say that the women should stop the meds till the child was born...
that one is interesting..since it tells me that you think the women should cease taking care of her health needs for the sake of the baby...
ya know people who take medication for severe pain should just endure that pain for the nine months.
people with mental illness should just allow themselves to become crazy loons for nine months, for the sake of the baby....
and on and on....
Like I said before on the other thread...
I think that the abortions should be controlled better, but well I look at the countries that have these bans and gee, nine year old kids pregnant by their daddies having to fight for the priviledge of having an abortion even when an army of doctors and nurses are claiming she will die..(by the way, the catholic church excommunicated the doctors and the nurses along with the mother of that child for helping the child, but not the father who raped her). polish blind women who also had doctors claiming she'd go blind is she carried the child and well ended up they were right...now she is a rather wealthy rich lady who is responsible for I think three young ones she is raising... oh and let's not forget about the lady in ireland who was forced to carry a dead fetus and died from the infection it caused!

Those that are militant pro-choicers need to remember they are furthering this mindset on young women.
This woman got pregnant here is her comment .

An abortion will further my career. This time next year I won’t have a baby. Instead, I’ll be famous, driving a bright pink Range Rover and buying a big house. Nothing will get in my way.”

I pulled this quote from another abortion thread on ATS.
Is this mentality a good thing for society, it exemplifies the selfishness, that modern society says you can choose over preserving a life.
This is all done under the guise of "womens rights" too, to make it more palpable.

Abortion Clock

1.34 BILLION killed since 1980, a staggering number, and the greatest genocide ever in human history. One day people are going to ask why this evil was so widely supported ?
My answer today to them would be, why was slavery so widely supported in the past, moral relativism.

45~ million less birth per year of the cancer that's killing the earth and ourselves along with it!

Go abortion!

Oh and, it's their damn life, their damn body...want to make the world a better place, look in the mirror and make a change.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33
okay now let's take a glance at the other path,
I've had three kids they are raised they are holding their own. Me and my husband have managed to raise with very little help from others, he always worked and I worked when I could. He passed away at the beginning of this year...
instead of saving for this day, we ended up having to pay more and more in taxes so that all those single mothers out there could run their kids to the doctors when they had runny noses so that they could be assured that the kid was okay. even when I was in a bed with a splint on my leg and had to enlist the help of a state assemblyman to convince a doctor to do the surgery that would enable me to walk again, well they were raising our taxes, so that they could pay for the single mom to get the most frivolous healthcare. my feet are still messed up, I cannot see me doing most of the jobs I see advertised in the paper, the only assistance that I can find coming my way is maybe a little food stamps and some assistance with heat, which of course I would need to keep a roof over my head to get. and well, since we although we were paying all that money in taxes,, so others could have healthcare, my health records are quit spread out with major gaps, so there isn't any disablity claim that can be proven. quite frankly, I don't blame her!

a reply to: amberinsc

The word consequence may sound harsh but I think you are picking apart what I say just to do it. The definition of consequence is "a result or effect of an action or condition." Consequences don't have to be bad. But yes a potential consequence to sex is pregnancy.

I am aware of the definition of the word, but thank you just the same. Unfortunately, in society words rarely are spoken in the exact context of the original meaning, and negative connotations of a word are what is most often inferred by the use of it, or perceived when hearing or seeing it. Legal language infers such a negative connotation, for example. Perception is everything.

The word consequence may sound harsh but I think you are picking apart what I say just to do it.

Once again, you are not bothering to do your research before blundering in and making assumptions about my (and others') intentions. Perhaps you would benefit from stepping outside yourself and looking from a different perspective at the way you choose to use your words. In the context of your sentence, you were inferring negativity with the word "consequence", in an attempt to drive home your point, and it is pointless for you to pretend that you were not...it is there, in print.

I am happy that you believe people actually have time to devote to picking apart your words, for no other reason than to just do it...as bizarre as that sounds, and perhaps there are actually people out there who are just that bored, but I assure you that I am not one of those people.

You made the statement that pregnancy is a consequence of having sex, and that infers that there is something shameful or abnormal about having sex, reinforcing the belief that it is a punishment if you have sex and become pregnant against your wishes in the process. Which is exactly the type of nonsense that we are trying to dissuade people from being manipulated into believing, by people such as the OP here. It is inflammatory and completely subjective, and the main reason why we are all having any kind of debate in the first place. And by making statements such as the one that you did you are promulgating it, perpetuating it, and promoting it.

a reply to: Seamrog

Fat ankles, crappy husbands, blooming college career, desperate and destitute future, NONE of those trump the right to life of that child

In addition to your charming, heartwarming religious pontification, you also appear to have a chronic habit of choosing which of the many valid reasons that you have been given by numerous intelligent human beings, for why what you are saying is nothing more than a pile of overdramatized garbage, and focusing on only the words that support your increasingly weak and ineffectual argument. Bravo.

Since you are the only one placing a quantifiable value on what "trumps" the right to life of a child, then pray tell...what does "trump" it? There must be something that does, since you are so rabidly insisting that "fat ankles" and "crappy husbands" (which were never even suggested as a reason for abortion in the first place...not too many lifeguards in your gene pool, are there?) do not. Right? So tell us, oh almighty defender of unborn fetuses...what is it? What makes the life of an unborn child trump any other life? Do you believe that somehow children's lives hold more value than other human life? Is that an "across-the-board" kind of deal? In other words; does that apply to all children on the planet or are there exceptions?

For instance, if the child's life in question were a grenade-carrying walking time bomb crying out for help, trying to infiltrate an encampment in order to blow itself and everyone within range to smithereens....would that child's life "trump" the lives of everyone else in that case? It's not ok to save others by ending that one child's life, because it's a child? Because I know people who have had to make exactly that decision in a war zone, and one of them was a mother of two small children herself. Could you make the decision to put a bullet through a child's head to save the lives of more than 50 others? Somehow, I don't think you could do it. But a mother did. Get out of here with that ridiculousness. Your religious melodrama might be welcome if this were fiction, but in reality it is completely inappropriate and quite frankly, disgusting.

originally posted by: tigertatzen
a reply to: amberinsc

The word consequence may sound harsh but I think you are picking apart what I say just to do it. The definition of consequence is "a result or effect of an action or condition." Consequences don't have to be bad. But yes a potential consequence to sex is pregnancy.

I am aware of the definition of the word, but thank you just the same. Unfortunately, in society words rarely are spoken in the exact context of the original meaning, and negative connotations of a word are what is most often inferred by the use of it, or perceived when hearing or seeing it. Legal language infers such a negative connotation, for example. Perception is everything.

The word consequence may sound harsh but I think you are picking apart what I say just to do it.

Once again, you are not bothering to do your research before blundering in and making assumptions about my (and others') intentions. Perhaps you would benefit from stepping outside yourself and looking from a different perspective at the way you choose to use your words. In the context of your sentence, you were inferring negativity with the word "consequence", in an attempt to drive home your point, and it is pointless for you to pretend that you were not...it is there, in print.

I am happy that you believe people actually have time to devote to picking apart your words, for no other reason than to just do it...as bizarre as that sounds, and perhaps there are actually people out there who are just that bored, but I assure you that I am not one of those people.

You made the statement that pregnancy is a consequence of having sex, and that infers that there is something shameful or abnormal about having sex, reinforcing the belief that it is a punishment if you have sex and become pregnant against your wishes in the process. Which is exactly the type of nonsense that we are trying to dissuade people from being manipulated into believing, by people such as the OP here. It is inflammatory and completely subjective, and the main reason why we are all having any kind of debate in the first place. And by making statements such as the one that you did you are promulgating it, perpetuating it, and promoting it.

I don't understand why the word consequence is so bad...but anyway...

"You made the statement that pregnancy is a consequence of having sex, and that infers that there is something shameful or abnormal about having sex, reinforcing the belief that it is a punishment if you have sex and become pregnant against your wishes in the process."
This...^ Ok... I never said that there was anything abnormal or shameful about sex. Now if you think that is what I was "inferring" because I used the word consequences then you are mistaken but perception is reality right? I guess your perception is more of a reality than mine. I do not think that pregnancy is punishment I believe the exact opposite. A baby (whether planned, unplanned, wanted or unwanted) is a blessing. Mine sure was. I didn't plan it, but still a complete blessing. I think that many pro choice do think that it is a negative consequence though to have an unwanted pregnancy. That is why they support abortion.... the rationale is You can have sex and consequentially get pregnant but you don't have to really deal with the decisions you make because you can make that clump of cells go away.

JEEBUSS!!!!!!!

If you don't agree with something, just don't do it. Live and let freaking live!

Don't agree with abortion - don't have one.

If people spent a lot more time worrying about their own spiritual path and final destination, and a lot less time trying to tell everyone else how to walk that path, we'd all be a whole hell of a lot better off! Don't worry about my soul, it's just fine and dandy. Worry about yours.

a reply to: dawnstar

First, I am so sorry for your loss. You have my deepest condolences.

Second, thank you for sharing. A huge part of the entire abortion issue is due to exactly the type of thing that you are describing. The thing that people cannot seem to grasp (again, due to lack of personal experience and critical thinking) is that, if you take all of the emotional aspect out of it and really look at things from a standpoint of the future, it becomes very obvious that if every single pregnancy was carried to term, regardless of how it was conceived, our planet would be overrun with people. Civilization would crumble under the financial strain of feeding, clothing, housing and medicating all of those extra people.

It would not be some smiling, sparkling utopia where all of the children and everybody live together, happily ever after. It would be slums and sickness and poverty and ruin. It would be really great if the people who are crying foul over the right to terminate a pregnancy would have some kind of a long-term plan to improve the situation. Better birth control education. More community outreach. Adjust the wages to the actual cost of living.

Stop making it so impossible to raise children and maybe a lot of these abortions they're whining about wouldn't be happening. Stop pointing fingers and ranting about right to life and start actually being a part of a viable solution. What part of "some people would rather terminate a pregnancy than relegate an innocent child to a life of poverty and misery and illness because there are not enough affordable resources for the people left on this planet" is so difficult to comprehend? What...their god can't spare a little out of each collection plate to make that happen?

Is that what we're to believe? Their pastors can't live in run-down apartments and drive a beat-up used Honda like everybody else down here so that all these unwanted pregnancies could be born and all those lives could be saved? No? What would Jesus do? I never had the pleasure of meeting the man, but I think it is safe to say that he probably wouldn't look around and go "Oh, yes of course children everywhere should go hungry so that church pastors can live in million dollar homes and drive Cadillacs and look down from their throne, pointing fingers at people terminating pregnancies because there is no money left for all the precious unborn fetuses!" And none of that is an exaggeration, by the way. I know from long, unfortunate experience that this is a reality...and it happens every single day in this country.

People are so quick to jump on their soapbox and condemn others' life choices, but they rarely offer a viable alternative. It is they who are the most selfish of all of us, so quick to point the finger of persecution but when asked for anything to better the situation they suddenly are nowhere to be found. And that is not a new development...it's been this way for quite some time now, and there doesn't seem to be any sign of change on the horizon any time soon, either.

a reply to: TechUnique

A mother has the right to do what she pleases with her creation. Animals in the wild kill their young at times as well. The mother takes all the risk in the pregnancy, the man just got his 30 seconds of pleasure and thinks he can now dictate over the woman to go through months of hell that will forever change her body. What if a woman was raped? What if the child's father is a coward and leaves her to tend to this baby financially on her own? You see it is easy for a man to say, that's my baby too! But in reality you don't risk your life creating it, the mother does. It's like 98% her choice.