Abortion and why it's wrong

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

Here's a challenge to all the "Pro-Life" men on this thread who will NEVER actually have to deal with a pregnancy: put a cinderblock in a backpack and wear it backwards (so all the weight is in the front) for 6 months. Straight. To bed, in the shower, driving, everything. Do this and I might respect your opinion a smidgen more. But it still doesn't give you the right to force your opinion on another person.

And you ask me what I've done? Um...I waited until I was financially/emotionally stable and then had planned pregnancies. And I have supported all my friends over all the years no matter what their situations were or what their decisions ended up being. But then again I'm not the one trying to dictate what other people must or must not do with their own bodies, so I would say my burden of proving my stance is much lower than a self-righteous anti-choicer.

He (and the other blowhards) will find a way to trivialize what you are saying into some complaint about cosmetic appearances, you know he will. If any of them had to endure a "normal" pregnancy...never mind one with complications...abortion would be not only legal, it'd be encouraged. And I am sure they would find a religious slant to justify that too, like they do everything else.

I never had fat ankles or weight gain/fluid retention, but I did have bilateral pneumonia for six months that went largely untreated because it would not respond to any of the antibiotics that were safe for a pregnant person to take, and spent the vast majority of my days on complete bedrest because I could not get enough oxygen to walk up even one flight of stairs. I had intractable nausea/vomiting too, the entire pregnancy, and could not gain enough weight because I could not hold food down. I was severely anemic, which further affected my ability to breathe properly and made me very weak.

I spent more time in the hospital than I ever did at home preparing for a new baby. I had an emergency c-section as well, and both myself and my daughter almost lost our lives, several times during that delivery. I was unable to take any of the medicines to treat my lupus because of risk to the baby, and that resulted in permanent tissue and organ damage that will affect me in countless different ways for the rest of my life, and likely even shorten the duration of my life. And I was using more than one form of birth control when I got pregnant, too. Religiously, if you'll pardon the unfortunate term.

I don't say this to complain, and I don't think that was your intention either. Just to illustrate that pregnancy is so much more than just weight gain and an aching back. It can end your life, and the life of the baby inside you. It is frightening. I love my daughter very much and would endure the entire process again if it meant that to have not gone through it, I would not have known the joy of having such an awesome kid. But do it again, because I selfishly want another? No. I will not do that. Risk leaving my daughter motherless and the new baby as well, should it be lucky enough to survive? No. It is simply not worth the risk. That would be selfish and irresponsible, in my opinion.

a reply to: amberinsc

What about the pregnant woman's Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness???? How is it okay to ruin her life, revoke all liberty and deny her pursuit of happiness? The moment she becomes pregnant the fetus' rights trump hers? How would you feel if suddenly the government told you that you had to be sick, gain weight, endure all kinds of physical, financial and emotional hardships for the next 10 months whether you wanted to or not? How would you feel if suddenly you were forced to either give up something you loved and wanted more than anything, or live in poverty for the rest of your life...or would you then consider that maybe putting an end to the situation early would be the least painful route for all involved?

It's really easy to Monday morning quarterback.

Along with abortion. Men specifically need to stop masterbating because that is literally killing millions of potential babies. I also remember specifically remember god murdering the # out of some dude for masterbating. Nothing in the bible about abortion tho. If we go by bible standards then men commit murder all the time why are they not excused? Oh I forgot society hates women. I'm firm believer in the bible not a Christian because yeshua didn't want egoic labels being used in his name. But back to the topic this whole argument is silly there is 7 BILLION people on earth and HALF OF THEM WILL GO HUNGRY TONIGHT if people were forced to birth children we would be hitting the 9 billion Mark and the world as we know it would be some mad max resource war type of situation with EVEN MORE SUFFERING. JUST REMEMBER OP EVERY TIME YOU MASTERBATE AND SPILL THE DIVINE SEED GOD HAS THE RIGHT TO MURDER THE # OUT OF YOU!

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Can someone tell me why, in every single pro-life thread, the first and most common response is rape/incest pregnancies? Do you people realize how statistically minute that is? It's a fall back straw man argument for those who don't want to address the real issues. Secondly, in my conservative circle of friends/contacts I don't know a single person who thinks there should be no exceptions. Specifically for medical safety or rape/incest cases.

There is a lot to unpack there.

The reason that rape and incest is a topic to be explored when it comes to abortion is...It speaks to the premise of "pro-life" arguments.

If we are saying that life begins at conception and that life is innocent...then why should any exception be made for rape or incest victims? Yes, they have suffered a horrible tragedy and been the victim of a crime...but "pro-life" argues that the woman's feelings about being pregnant have no place in the face of a n innocent life?

I am pro-choice...By the way no one is anti-life.."pro-Life" is an idiotic play on semantics for rhetorical purposes.

But...If Pro-Lifers are going to make the argument that the woman carrying the child should not have a decision, then rape and incest are irrelevant, since that "child" had no part in the crime.

So yes...that is a relevant topic to wrap your head around when deciding to play god and legislating moral absolutes.

originally posted by: christophoros
Along with abortion. Men specifically need to stop masterbating because that is literally killing millions of potential babies.

Every Sperm is Sacred..

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

"Here's a challenge to all the "Pro-Life" men on this thread who will NEVER actually have to deal with a pregnancy: put a cinderblock in a backpack and wear it backwards (so all the weight is in the front) for 6 months. Straight. To bed, in the shower, driving, everything. Do this and I might respect your opinion a smidgen more. But it still doesn't give you the right to force your opinion on another person. "

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I get where you're going, but that really trivializes parenthood as a whole. The pregnancy aspect is a breeze compared to the Sisyphean task of raising children. Having them is relatively easy, raising them is where it gets challenging, and wonderful. BTW don't let my avatar fool you, I'm the mother of two children, 5 and 7.

To pro-lifers, I don't believe the abortion issue should even be an issue until we have comprehensively solved the contraception problem. Until every woman has free and unlimited access to ALL types of contraceptives, the abortion debate is putting the cart before the horse. You're telling women not to solve a problem unique to their gender when you're simultaneously telling them they have a limited ability to prevent said problem. That never works out well.

a reply to: tigertatzen

Amen sister! You hit the nail on the head- I wasn't trying to complain, just merely pointing out to the penis wielding folks on here what a pregnancy actually entails. And words can't describe the sickness and discomfort. I love being a mother, but I wouldn't wish pregnancy/labor/birth on my worst enemy. It's funny how the most militant 'pro-lifers' are usually men. I would say 80%-90% of women are of the stance "Well, I personally wouldn't have one, but far be it for me to tell someone else what to do with their body."

If the shoe was on the other foot- if say the government was trying to force all men to have vasectomies- there would be riots in the streets that would make Ferguson look like afternoon tea. Or, if it were men having to go through pregnancy and birth- boy there'd be an abortion clinic on every corner.

It's just very cavalier to tell someone they HAVE to do something that you haven't done yourself and never will do yourself.

PS Sorry for your bear of a pregnancy and congrats on the happy ending! Many women/babies aren't so lucky. It is very dangerous business and it takes 110% physical, mental and emotional dedication.

a reply to: amberinsc

Took me a second to realize that you had actually even typed anything...it looked like you just copied my post back to me. I think they may have tutorials on the formatting of replies, if you're struggling.

The death penalty is used on convicted murderers and such, not an innocent baby.

Yes, thanks for taking that entirely out of context. A "fetus" and a "baby" are not the same thing, so please refrain from getting it twisted. Plenty of innocent people are convicted of and put to death for crimes that they did not commit..and such, so if you want to open that can of worms, be my guest. We could argue that back and forth all day.

Sounds like you are throwing judgment around yourself.

If by that you mean calling people out on thinking that they are somehow better than others, then yes, I suppose that could be a valid statement, and in that case...como si como sa. Well done.

"Tunnel-vision"? You seem like you are really open to other perspectives too...

Then perhaps you should read my other posts, because I have stated more than one perspective on this subject and made my personal feelings on the issue of abortion quite clear. I, as well as numerous others, have managed to do that without bringing religion into it, which is my primary issue with posters such as the one I was addressing.

I think it is good and healthy for people to have their views and morals in wavering in certain instances. Can't be so open minded that our brains fall out.

"In wavering"? Sorry, can you clarify? I can't decipher whatever it is you are trying to say there.

Are you trying to make some slick insinuation about the quality of my brain function or did you just throw that in at the end there because you thought it sounded like a super cool thing to say? Either way, you are sadly mistaken.

a reply to: RoyBatty

Oh I agree wholeheartedly that raising children is NOT for everyone. I was mainly aiming my anecdotes and challenge to the men who have the attitude of "Just have the baby and give it up for adoption!" Like they're saying "Just go to McDonald's and order a cheeseburger!"

Hey guys, it's more like "Just cut off your left foot with a hacksaw!" I mean, come on, what's the big deal? So easy for me to say, not so easy for you to do.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

My mistake, now I understand what you were expressing. I have parts of my body that were damaged enough during the delivery of my second child that they will never function the same, even after surgery. So yeah, it's not that easy!

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

Thank you, and I must say I admire you for being brave enough to repeat the process...you look miserable in that pic, and I am quite sure the size of your ankles was the very least of your concerns, even though certain people zero in on that and ignore everything else that is being said.

You are spot on about the vasectomy analogy...just look at the trouble that the pharmaceutical industry has gone to making Viagra readily available for anyone who wants an insta-erection...I mean, obviously that is a priority for medical science...can't have people just walking around feeling anything less than perky now can we? Speaking of cosmetic concerns. Ahem.

It's just very cavalier to tell someone they HAVE to do something that you haven't done yourself and never will do yourself.

EXACTLY. That's the crux of it, right there. People who are unable, or unwilling to do something themselves have no business trying to dictate what is proper or not proper with regard to that something. That goes for anyone, not just pro-lifers or however they want to classify themselves; just like people who don't have children trying to tell others how to raise them, or anything that is so multi-faceted that in order to even comprehend it, one must actually experience it first.

It is one thing to disagree with someone's decision, based on limited knowledge of something that you have no point of reference for. It is another thing entirely to condemn someone or categorize someone and trivialize what is their very real struggle, based on that limited knowledge. And that is what these people are doing here, what the OP is doing, and everyone else who supports his lofty assumptions about something he does not fully comprehend. And demoralizing another person is bad enough without using religion as a weapon by which to accomplish that goal. Religion does not belong in this debate; there is a reason for separation of church and State. People seem to have forgotten that...they just fall back on religion for ammunition because they have no valid justification for their position on the subject otherwise.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: amberinsc

What about the pregnant woman's Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness???? How is it okay to ruin her life, revoke all liberty and deny her pursuit of happiness? The moment she becomes pregnant the fetus' rights trump hers? How would you feel if suddenly the government told you that you had to be sick, gain weight, endure all kinds of physical, financial and emotional hardships for the next 10 months whether you wanted to or not? How would you feel if suddenly you were forced to either give up something you loved and wanted more than anything, or live in poverty for the rest of your life...or would you then consider that maybe putting an end to the situation early would be the least painful route for all involved?

It's really easy to Monday morning quarterback.

The government is not telling anyone they have to get pregnant. I think we all know how one gets pregnant. She chose that not the government. It is called consequences. I don't claim to know what the answer is but abortion as a form of birth control is absolutely not right. If a mother's life is in jeopardy or if she was raped or incest or something like that then I can see a debate on the issue. The percentage of abortions that happen due those above mentioned reasons are very small though.

Abortion is a simple issue in my mind. If you are against it, then don't have one. It's that simple. People should still have the choice. Folks are generally only against it because of unverified religious claims about heaven, hell, and the soul. Forcing other people to believe your version of religion is not a good reason to ban it for everybody. Personally, I prefer adoption over abortion, but I'm not going to force that view as truth on anybody. There are tons of kids that do not get adopted so it's not exactly a good life to be raised in a group home with no parents or in a poor family that can't make ends meet. If it turns out that religious claims about heaven and the soul are wrong, then having an abortion could very well be a good thing if it prevents the child from being born into a life of suffering.

In the meantime, I feel religious folks have no right whatsoever to tell non religious how to conduct their affairs. If you are allowed to believe that people have souls and won't go to heaven without baptism and religion, then likewise others have a right to believe in reincarnation which actually makes abortion (in the right circumstances) the right thing to do, since the spirit would just go into another baby.

Nobody knows what's true and what's not, and laws shouldn't be made to appease either side. Leave the choice up to the states, or up to the individuals. Making decisions like this ourselves is what makes us human. After all, we have to live with whatever decision we make.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: RoyBatty

Oh I agree wholeheartedly that raising children is NOT for everyone. I was mainly aiming my anecdotes and challenge to the men who have the attitude of "Just have the baby and give it up for adoption!" Like they're saying "Just go to McDonald's and order a cheeseburger!"

Hey guys, it's more like "Just cut off your left foot with a hacksaw!" I mean, come on, what's the big deal? So easy for me to say, not so easy for you to do.

It is also 9 months. Just 9 months to have to endure pregnancy. I was 21 when I got pregnant. Only about 100 lbs. It was hard on my body at times. i gained 50 pounds while pregnant. My feet were so fat and I truly felt miserable. I know there are many who have complications far greater than what I endured but it is for 9 months. So 9 months is too long to endure if you don't want the baby? Nine months is too long to consider adoption? Better to just kill it?

At 21 I didn't want a baby, I was just finishing college and wanted to explore. My son is now 11 and he is so smart, kind, and I learn so much from him everyday. From the day I met him i was in love and never once regretted having him. We talk about history, books he reads, he has been a joy to watch grow up so far. I am so glad that I did not listen to those that told me I was too young and to get an abortion. I would have missed out on knowing him and wow... just thinking about that makes me tear up.

a reply to: tigertatzen

Sorry. I don't post often and I am fairly new here. I meant to say unwavering. I didn't even realize if I hit the reply button. My bad.

And I was in no means making a slick remark about your brain. I was trying to say that I think it is okay to be strong in your beliefs (unwavering). I think it is normal to not be open minded about everything. I think it is important to listen to other people but absolutely okay to be resolute in your beliefs (regardless of what they are).

All the women who approve of child murder spew the same sad argument:

"ME, ME, ME, ME, MY, MY, MY, MINE, MINE, MY, ME, ME!"


Not ONE word about the child in the womb who cannot defend itself from a murderous, self-serving heart.


The pro-life argument does, in fact, have the moral high ground, and we should never be ashamed to claim it and proclaim it. For the God haters and the non religious, the point is the same regardless of how you feel or don't feel about God.


That child, that LIFE, no matter how small, has the right to exist from the moment of conception.


Fat ankles, crappy husbands, blooming college career, desperate and destitute future, NONE of those trump the right to life of that child.

a reply to: Seamrog

Yup

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: WatchingY0u

Birth control began over 6000 years ago...

The earliest documented instances of birth control date to 2,000BCE at the earliest, anything else is speculation.

Just curious, what documentation would that be? Would it be the Egyptian IUD or a coin with a picture of a persian plant on it that was used, to extinction, to cause abortions?

originally posted by: Seamrog
The pro-life argument does, in fact, have the moral high ground, and we should never be ashamed to claim it and proclaim it. For the God haters and the non religious, the point is the same regardless of how you feel or don't feel about God.

It does not actually have the moral high ground, because you don't know that your religion is true or that god even exists. You assume it. If reincarnation is true (whether there is a god or not), then pro choice has the high moral grounds as it eliminates suffering rather than forces a baby to be born into a bad situation.

Unfortunately you can't prove either one so you have to leave the decision up to the people. You are looking at things from the perspective that your own personal worldview is fact. It's not fact, and if reincarnation is true, then you are in the wrong. It's morally relative depending on your personal beliefs. If god was truly against abortion, I'd expect him to say something to us.