Caitlyn is a woman; Rachel is black; what do you want to be?

a reply to: grandmakdw

It was rude grams. Kinda meant for it to be. No apology from me

You went to a great deal of trouble to lay out a genetic case for why Ms. Jenner is a liar. I have a real problem with that

You then tried to use all your scientific knowledge to prove this unprovable point. Then you dismissed it all - saying that you didn't really care about any of it anyway - because it was clear (which, again - it is not) that he's just a money grubbing attention seeking, (not very nice) person - and that the whole thing is a sham

This is your opinion - not fact

You never answer my questions - read back through - there are plenty to choose from

This thread is a malicious bit of crap from start to finish - that you keep trying to defend and sell as if it's something honorable

No doubt I've violated the T&C just then - but, oh well

When you want to have a civil discussion - you let me know. Meanwhile - you might start by not creating threads designed solely to malign people you don't know with evidence you don't have to prove a point that is unseemly - at best

No love lost grams

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: TzarChasm

Yeah granny aint keeping this to Jenna.....
She has tarred all trans with the same brush as Jenna. And no Trans people don't all "make a bread circus out of it"

not saying they do. never once did i say that. but i certainly dont respect the ones who do, and feel they ought to be taken to task by the trans society members that do respect themselves. "trailblazers" are just so tacky.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: grandmakdw

It was rude grams. Kinda meant for it to be. No apology from me

You went to a great deal of trouble to lay out a genetic case for why Ms. Jenner is a liar. I have a real problem with that

You then tried to use all your scientific knowledge to prove this unprovable point. Then you dismissed it all - saying that you didn't really care about any of it anyway - because it was clear (which, again - it is not) that he's just a money grubbing attention seeking, (not very nice) person - and that the whole thing is a sham....
No doubt I've violated the T&C just then - but, oh well

I never said Jenner was a liar.
I simply stated quite clearly that while "she"
may identify as female and live as female,
she is and always will be genetically male,
and nothing will ever change that.

That is not tar and feather, it is fact.

Once again, but you guys will never get it,
if someone is transgender, fine,
most do not make a circus out of it
and I have zero respect for those who do
and feel they are disingenuous about it.

The transgender who live fully as the other gender
quietly and fully and don't make it other people's business,
that is who I respect.

You still never answered my question, because obviously you can't.

Sorry my conversation with you is over
because you can only speak in insults and lowbrow overly emotional tones.

This thread wasn't started to be malicious
it was started to begin a conversation -
Does feeling and thinking you are
another gender, race, species
make it real.
I say in a scientific sense, no.
So if society must accept transgender
must we then accept transracial
because there is no real difference
between the feelings and the
transformations that occur.

However, I also say if one is transgender
or transracial, ok it is their business
as long as they don't make it my business
or the world's business by
being a media whore, or by defrauding
as Rachel did by taking money meant
for black students, and by making money
and a public spectacle
as Jenner is doing off something that
should be private.

Keep it private, it's your business
and I respect that.

Make a public spectacle out of it or defraud people,
it becomes everyone's business and one must accept the criticism that comes with it.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I don't understand, I quoted what you said, can you clarify pls TC?

grandmakdw:

I want to wind my activity on this thread up by giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Suppose you are a person who has really sincerely struggled with trying to comprehend these events, and you are trying so hard, really super- hard, lol, to understand the choices she has made. Let's suppose you are undeniably that person who is trying to understand and digest this.

..... you are extraordinarily perplexed as to why a man who is goodlooking, intelligent, healthy, successful, wealthy and has had a stellar athletic career for which he is still celebrated, would want to make such a mind-blowing, spectacular change in life.

Note here that multiple posters have tried to 'help you out with this' or enlighten you or educate you on the subject, if you will. People have given you examples from their own personal lives and circumstances, I see. Most of them clear as a bell, as well as insightful and intelligent, and should tell you all you need to know. But still you are unsatisfied. You can't see it. You remain frustrated with the decisions of others you can't relate to. You refuse to accept the genuine effort of others to help you understand. If you do pause for a moment to entertain their thoughts and feelings to you, your responses seem superficial and temporarily placating. If I'm wrong, then tell me. I want to know why you insist on wanting to "instruct" your fellow ATS members, but deny them the opportunity to instruct you.

However, if you are the person I described above, and you are unable to understand what everyone has been telling you, I will again advise you with the words from my first post:

Accept the things you cannot change.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Bravo, can I copy an past that^^^^ and make it my closing statement too?

I will add this, all fun and games in the beginning of this thread, however most members are aware there ARE transpeople part of our ATS community. Had the topic been about mocking what type of black person, or Asian stereotype it would have been closed immediately.

Pages and pages of mocking transpeople I found upsetting for people here who are trans, I imagine it was very hard and hurtful for them to read. It's not like they haven't had enough trauma already.

I know all of you will be cranky at me for saying it, but hey its how I felt when I first opened the thread.

Lets go my Lady and mull over other things.
Z

Everyone criticizing Jenner:

First of all, when she tried to be discreet in the beginning, all the papaarazzi kept taking pictures of her and everyone was gossiping and tongue-wagging about what the changes were all about. How exactly is an already-famous person supposed to handle a dramatic change such as this discreetly? It's best to just come out with it and be public, so it doesn't look like you are ashamed of what you are becoming.

I remember when Ellen DeGeneres came out as gay. She was already famous and very popular - she had her own sitcom and it was very successful. When she came out, most people who already really liked her just took it in stride. Her being very public helped the masses to accept homosexuality in the every-day person, because people thought, "well, Ellen is cool, so it's not so bad to be gay". Famous people going through these difficult things publicly really do help to raise awareness.

So, I don't have the opinion that Caitlyn Jenner is only doing this to get money or attention, unless the attention is to help raise awareness to offset the stigma of being a transgender - just like Ellen helped to offset the stigma of being gay. That's not a bad thing in my book.

Regarding the science of being transgender:

We are only starting to understand the biology of transgenderism. To say the science is done and final is being disengenuous.

As far as transracial and transpecies? If you are willing to live your life completely and without exception as another race or another species - more power to you. It doesn't bother me.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Thank you Zazzy, and I completely agree. I have trouble understanding the lack of understanding. Your post about changes you've made in your life, as well as others on this thread pouring out their very real emotions and intellect, would have been enough alone to turn me around, if I was lost in my own perspectives, as our OP seems to be.

My best.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

I haven't made much of a change (dyeing my hair is hardly ground breaking ) but the others and their stories in other threads has me aware they are people who have hurt pretty badly, and are coming through it, and publicly denouncing them is not my thing, compassion first.

See you round m'lady.

a reply to: grandmakdw

You still never answered my question, because obviously you can't.

It's unanswerable as asked. You seem to want to prove that if one thing is a decision - all things are a decision. There's a difference between biology and culture

Intent is everything - and not always invisible

As long as we're dealing in things we can't prove - you know the other easy target you singled out to make your case?

The real meat of Homeschoolers Anonymous' findings are in excerpts from a memoir written by Dolezal's older biological brother, Joshua, titled Down From the Mountaintop: From Belief to Belonging. (He is currently facing charges of sexual abuse against a child.) The memoir paints a picture of religious fanaticism, including passages that describe speaking in tongues; his family's beliefs evoke a Pentecostal strain of the Christian patriarchy–style views of the Duggar clan from TLC's 19 Kids and Counting. (Both the Duggars and the Dolezals apparently endorsed the child-abuse-as-discipline technique known as "blanket training.") Joshua Dolezal describes his father's rages and his mother nearly bleeding to death after a miscarriage, relying on faith-healing instead of modern medicine. He claims he and his sister were born at home without the assistance of a physician or midwife, and listed "Jesus Christ" as the witness on their birth certificates. (Rachel Dolezal said on Tuesday that she was born "in the woods.")

I admit to submitting hearsay as possible evidence of a cause for something you want to use as evidence of another kind

The title of this piece?
Rachel Dolezal Was Raised by Christian Fundamentalists. No Wonder She Wanted a New Identity.

See the kind of thing that happens when we paint with too broad a brush grams?

But, never mind that now. I'm just going to go out on that limb. Interesting article with links to more - all unproven. If even a little bit of this turns out to be true, I say this poor young woman managed to salvage something of herself in a very creative and symbolic way

But hers was a choice - not biology. Do you want to claim again it's all choice? Then prove it. Prove it your own self and stop with the leading questions. Make your case and be honest about it

i want to be a supreme being, and because i think it thats what i am, judging by the logic that the people discussed use.

I believe that I am a billionaire. I feel that I am a very rich person, so I expect that any shopping outlet treat me as such. Please do not infringe upon my sensibilities and allow me to be who I truly feel that I am.

I am being very courageous right now, and I would expect that the media will be standing with me in this time of bravery.

If anyone is in direct contact with Forbes magazine, please let them know that I need to be on the cover of the magazine in order to fulfill my inner imagery of myself.

Stuff got even weirder
www.dailymail.co.uk...
Kilk here^

originally posted by: Spider879
Stuff got even weirder
www.dailymail.co.uk...
Kilk here^

SURE DID!

I said on a different thread that I wanted to be a manatee but I've changed my mind..

I want to be a rainbow colored manatee with a raging blood lust.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Personally, I've always identified as a vampire cat.
I don't like daytime, and I'm wary of most people.
So I'm gonna need schools and government buildings to go ahead and add bathrooms fitted with litter boxes for me to pee in, and start keeping night hours, with fish served in the cafeterias every day.
My bandwagon thanks you in advance.

ETA: Shouldn't it just be a rule on here not to post links to the Daily Mail (and a few others) already?
Might as well be the Onion.

I've often felt that I was a much taller person than I appear to be. Is that something I can change on my government id?

As far as Jenner; is the guy saying he's a woman or a female? Because I think those are technically different terms.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I've decided I feel like I should be president, I am transpresidential, move over Obama!!!!!!!!!!!

a reply to: grandmakdw

I am a dog. Pet me humans. Feed me too. Money is meaningless and the world is my restroom. Aw yeah
*puts on Wilfred suit*