True Authorship of The Old Testament?

a reply to: WarminIndy

There were not 70 different writers, they were translators. The Jewish canon is Torah and Tanahk, it always has been.

Yes you are right on Warminlndy.
And i have also read that all 70 Translators from Hebrew to Greek were separated from each other and when finalized all agreed with one another.

The Hebrew manuscripts that were used to translate into Greek involved just Torah from the onset (two to three hundred BCE) and gradually involved the Tanahk in the years preceding Jesus. As Jesus came upon the scene there were two approved Torah's in use which were the Hebrew and the Greek. The Jerusalem Temple did use Hebrew even in the days of Jesus but the Greek was used for the majority of the common people.

This was one of the main reasons that James the Just and his congregation used only Hebrew liturgy and forbid Greek influence into the first church.

Also the original Septuagint is highly debatable as to its authenticity and the Hebrew manuscripts have been destroyed by the vipers who murdered the Jews and burned their literature. I believe today we have six or more renditions of the LXX.
That is one reason that most all rely upon the Masoretic texts of the Hebrews. The dead sea scrolls verify Torah as almost word for word and over 1000 years older than what we use today.

To parrot the rants of bible bashers is to not know the facts of the Torah.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: bartholomeo

The Old Testament is TORAH and TANAHK. Did you not know this?

Did you know that if you go into any synagogue they have a giant..wait for it....Torah scroll, which is the Old Testament. Who wrote Torah? A bunch of Jewish people.

Yes I knew that the OT is based on jewish books, but I am not jewish and therefore call it like everybody in the city I live in calls it, and that would be The Old Testament. If you are jewish I'm pretty sure you call it the Torah, that doesn't take out the fact that your answer about who wrote the OT was... mmmhh how should I put it? Mediocre.

NOT based on...IS.

Considering that Torah and Tanahk were written over several hundred years, by various people and canonized by rabbis, why don't you let the rabbis speak for themselves?

Here you go, Rabbi Shmuley Yanklowitz

First we must understand that those who claim our ancient texts are historically flawed cannot succeed at removing the grandeur and beauty of our tradition. Along with the obsolescence of the documentary hypothesis, scholars have found that the arguments that the Torah has multiple authors and a later canonization due to varying masoretic texts uncompelling. Further, we need not embrace biblical criticism, or that J, E, P, and D were the four main authors, as some biblical scholars have claimed. G-d speaks in different voices that may appear to be inconsistent or originate from different individuals.

So who wrote it? A bunch of Jewish people. That's what I said earlier.

Rabbi Eli Brackman

I am not religiously Jewish, I am, however, ancestrally Jewish and do keep mitzvots. You are trying to ask who wrote books that are over 3,000 years old, over time, with many writers.

They call it Torah, so I will.

Oh thank you for your enlightment, the knowledge you are disclosing must be coming down right from the very top, I think I'm going to convert to judaism now. Just kidding

I am well aware of the official story, I was hoping to get alternative theories though, and as far as you jewish ancestry, your genealogy must be pretty long.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: Coagula
Could it have been written by the Greek God Zues? I remember someone telling me that he had something to do with the 10 commandments.

I am sure most people would agree that it was not written by the Greek God Zeus.

OK, that we agree on.

Where did they get the idea of Zeus?

Je-zeus?

You must be thinking of the little Mexican guy selling corn fajitas from his cart.

Hey-soos......

Hey! Would you leave the guy alone, he just wants to work.

a reply to: bartholomeo

One possibility is that the writers of the Old Testament were exactly who they were portrayed to be, you know, the traditional understandings of authorship.

For instance, the first five books were supposed to have been written by Moses. Even Jesus seemed fairly convinced of it.

For someone millennia later to have decided that the traditionally attributed authors were not, based not upon hard empirical evidence but rather based upon the supposition that there were different writing styles in the text (and I'm not sure how you determine 'writing style' from short partial sentences, either. The more you delve into the 'documentary hypothesis', the more irrational it becomes).

My call is that you don't need alternate authors, unless your goal is to discredit the content.

originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: Coagula
Could it have been written by the Greek God Zues? I remember someone telling me that he had something to do with the 10 commandments.

I am sure most people would agree that it was not written by the Greek God Zeus.

OK, that we agree on.

Where did they get the idea of Zeus?

Je-zeus?

You must be thinking of the little Mexican guy selling corn fajitas from his cart.

Hey-soos......

Hey! Would you leave the guy alone, he just wants to work.

He only makes money if we buy them.

Too bad he doesn't sell Burrito Bowls like Chipotle.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: bartholomeo

One possibility is that the writers of the Old Testament were exactly who they were portrayed to be, you know, the traditional understandings of authorship.

For instance, the first five books were supposed to have been written by Moses. Even Jesus seemed fairly convinced of it.

For someone millennia later to have decided that the traditionally attributed authors were not, based not upon hard empirical evidence but rather based upon the supposition that there were different writing styles in the text (and I'm not sure how you determine 'writing style' from short partial sentences, either. The more you delve into the 'documentary hypothesis', the more irrational it becomes).

My call is that you don't need alternate authors, unless your goal is to discredit the content.

I was waiting for your reply whoever you are. And I was waiting to tell you that questioning and inquring is of geniuses while following blindly is of sheep. I hope the message doesn't get lost in translation.

originally posted by: bartholomeo

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: bartholomeo

The Old Testament is TORAH and TANAHK. Did you not know this?

Did you know that if you go into any synagogue they have a giant..wait for it....Torah scroll, which is the Old Testament. Who wrote Torah? A bunch of Jewish people.

Yes I knew that the OT is based on jewish books, but I am not jewish and therefore call it like everybody in the city I live in calls it, and that would be The Old Testament. If you are jewish I'm pretty sure you call it the Torah, that doesn't take out the fact that your answer about who wrote the OT was... mmmhh how should I put it? Mediocre.

NOT based on...IS.

Considering that Torah and Tanahk were written over several hundred years, by various people and canonized by rabbis, why don't you let the rabbis speak for themselves?

Here you go, Rabbi Shmuley Yanklowitz

First we must understand that those who claim our ancient texts are historically flawed cannot succeed at removing the grandeur and beauty of our tradition. Along with the obsolescence of the documentary hypothesis, scholars have found that the arguments that the Torah has multiple authors and a later canonization due to varying masoretic texts uncompelling. Further, we need not embrace biblical criticism, or that J, E, P, and D were the four main authors, as some biblical scholars have claimed. G-d speaks in different voices that may appear to be inconsistent or originate from different individuals.

So who wrote it? A bunch of Jewish people. That's what I said earlier.

Rabbi Eli Brackman

I am not religiously Jewish, I am, however, ancestrally Jewish and do keep mitzvots. You are trying to ask who wrote books that are over 3,000 years old, over time, with many writers.

They call it Torah, so I will.

Oh thank you for your enlightment, the knowledge you are disclosing must be coming down right from the very top, I think I'm going to convert to judaism now. Just kidding

I am well aware of the official story, I was hoping to get alternative theories though, and as far as you jewish ancestry, your genealogy must be pretty long.

You just might have Jewish ancestry yourself, and don't know it.

There's nothing wrong with it.

a reply to: Seede

And i have also read that all 70 Translators from Hebrew to Greek were separated from each other and when finalized all agreed with one another.

HAHA! Oh I'm sure! Just like Kim Jong Un got 100% of the North Korean Vote last election!

I can't imagine 70 scholars agreeing on where the sun rises, let alone the translation of 1000s of scrolls.

a reply to: chr0naut

One possibility is that the writers of the Old Testament were exactly who they were portrayed to be, you know, the traditional understandings of authorship.

Homer was a prolific writer of antiquity, responsible for the Odyssey and The Iliad. His writings were epic fiction, myths that most probably incorporated some real places and historic people. However, what Homer didn't do is immortalize himself as a representative of the gods, by placing himself as a leading hero in his tomes.

What you're suggesting is that Moses divined the creation story, the flood story, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham and Isaac, Joseph sold into slavery by his brothers, his own story....being set adrift in a basket, adopted by a the Pharaoh's daughter, yada, yada, yada.....then went on to lead his people out of Egypt and dictate all the Laws in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy......AND!!! It's all historic truth too!

That's one prolific and heroic character, but I don't believe it for one minute. Moses didn't write the first 5 books of the Bible; The Torah. Nope. Not buying it.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Seede

And i have also read that all 70 Translators from Hebrew to Greek were separated from each other and when finalized all agreed with one another.

HAHA! Oh I'm sure! Just like Kim Jong Un got 100% of the North Korean Vote last election!

I can't imagine 70 scholars agreeing on where the sun rises, let alone the translation of 1000s of scrolls.

a reply to: chr0naut

One possibility is that the writers of the Old Testament were exactly who they were portrayed to be, you know, the traditional understandings of authorship.

Homer was a prolific writer of antiquity, responsible for the Odyssey and The Iliad. His writings were epic fiction, myths that most probably incorporated some real places and historic people. However, what Homer didn't do is immortalize himself as a representative of the gods, by placing himself as a leading hero in his tomes.

What you're suggesting is that Moses divined the creation story, the flood story, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham and Isaac, Joseph sold into slavery by his brothers, his own story....being set adrift in a basket, adopted by a the Pharaoh's daughter, yada, yada, yada.....then went on to lead his people out of Egypt and dictate all the Laws in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy......AND!!! It's all historic truth too!

That's one prolific and heroic character, but I don't believe it for one minute. Moses didn't write the first 5 books of the Bible; The Torah. Nope. Not buying it.

And there is no evidence Homer actually lived. What we have are translated copies from Greek, and not by a single contemporary. And many Greek scholars are divided over what Homer wrote.

Homer

Even if these details about Homer are available, not much is know about him. In fact his existence is somewhat doubted. Some say he was born on the island of Chios while argue that he existed in Ionia. But the dialect and the description in the poems pointed that Homer lived in Ionia.

A hundred years after Homer someone said Homer lived and wrote poems that later were translated from Greek into English, and not by a single contemporary. It does seem someone was placing Homer as probably the hero of the story because...

The epic poem Odyssey focuses on the Greek character Odysseus and his ten year journey from Troy to Ithaca after the fall of Troy (Trojan war). The poem covers both the circumstances that befell his family in Ithaca and his own perilous adventures back from Troy. Whilst in Odysseus absence at home, his sonTelemachus and wife Penelope have to deal with suitors who move into their home, in an attempt to take Odysseus place and ask Penelope's hand in marriage

And why?

Homer's ancestry can be traced from Odyssey. He was the son of Epikaste and Telemachus

Someone wrote a story involving Telemachus, who happens to be the son of Odysseus and the father of Homer. Coincidence?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Yep. You help me make my point.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Yep. You help me make my point.

I am being facetious.....

I was applying the same thought process to Homer, to make a point that when there is any reference to any person connected to the Bible, people say "there is no evidence and no contemporary witnesses" when there are multiplicity of records. So let's apply it to all the Greek philosophers as well.

Now, can you prove Homer existed? Is there any contemporary witness of Homer? No, there is not.

Can we prove Jesus lived? Yes, and we have over and over again ad naseum. But you quote and reference "scholars" who have limited scholarship because it suits an anti-Biblical agenda.

Did Moses live? 3,000 years of Jewish scholars keeping records of their lives and religion say yes. Whether or not you consider Jews worthy to even know their history, that doesn't change the fact that they have unbroken transmissions of records and scrolls from the time of Moses.

They did know how to read and write.

a reply to: WarminIndy

So, your claiming that Moses wrote and starred in his own epic? He wrote the Torah, including his own biography and the biography of mankind, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph....Moses, it's all historical truth handed down from Moses himself...that's what your claiming?

Did Moses live? 3,000 years of Jewish scholars keeping records of their lives and religion say yes. Whether or not you consider Jews worthy to even know their history, that doesn't change the fact that they have unbroken transmissions of records and scrolls from the time of Moses.

Unbroken transmission my @$$!

How are the Jews any different from the Greeks or the Egyptians. Did Osiris exist? Did Isis give birth to Horus. Was Zeus real, was Hercules one of his sons? Adam and Eve? Noah? Moses?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Seede

And i have also read that all 70 Translators from Hebrew to Greek were separated from each other and when finalized all agreed with one another.

HAHA! Oh I'm sure! Just like Kim Jong Un got 100% of the North Korean Vote last election!

I can't imagine 70 scholars agreeing on where the sun rises, let alone the translation of 1000s of scrolls.

a reply to: chr0naut

One possibility is that the writers of the Old Testament were exactly who they were portrayed to be, you know, the traditional understandings of authorship.

Homer was a prolific writer of antiquity, responsible for the Odyssey and The Iliad. His writings were epic fiction, myths that most probably incorporated some real places and historic people. However, what Homer didn't do is immortalize himself as a representative of the gods, by placing himself as a leading hero in his tomes.

What you're suggesting is that Moses divined the creation story, the flood story, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham and Isaac, Joseph sold into slavery by his brothers, his own story....being set adrift in a basket, adopted by a the Pharaoh's daughter, yada, yada, yada.....then went on to lead his people out of Egypt and dictate all the Laws in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy......AND!!! It's all historic truth too!

That's one prolific and heroic character, but I don't believe it for one minute. Moses didn't write the first 5 books of the Bible; The Torah. Nope. Not buying it.

Moses was an inveterate overachiever.

If you actually had read the works in question, you would know that he tried to be the judge and adjudicator for all the people he led out of slavery (more than 600,000 according to Exodus 14) and was inundated by public requests, dawn to dusk. His father in law, Jethro, had to intervene and get him to set up a system of sub-adjudicators and tribal leaders so Moses would have a more reasonable life.

In the subsequent 40+ years Moses led the people in circles in the desert, I could imagine that he had the opportunity to write quite a bit.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

So, your claiming that Moses wrote and starred in his own epic? He wrote the Torah, including his own biography and the biography of mankind, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph....Moses, it's all historical truth handed down from Moses himself...that's what your claiming?

Did Moses live? 3,000 years of Jewish scholars keeping records of their lives and religion say yes. Whether or not you consider Jews worthy to even know their history, that doesn't change the fact that they have unbroken transmissions of records and scrolls from the time of Moses.

Unbroken transmission my @$$!

How are the Jews any different from the Greeks or the Egyptians. Did Osiris exist? Did Isis give birth to Horus. Was Zeus real, was Hercules one of his sons? Adam and Eve? Noah? Moses?

What's so hard to believe about a history of unbroken transmission? The accounts in all 24 books of the Tanakh overlap from the time of Moses until about 400 years prior to Christ.

The Old Testament was written by various authors at various times. Even some of the books that are ascribed to a single author were written by various authors. Where prophecy is concerned and "fulfilled", the texts were written after the fact. In some places it gets important historical details wrong.

The Authenticity and Authorship of the Old Testament

It cannot be the divinely inspired word of god!

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: WarminIndy

There were not 70 different writers, they were translators. The Jewish canon is Torah and Tanahk, it always has been.

Yes you are right on Warminlndy.
And i have also read that all 70 Translators from Hebrew to Greek were separated from each other and when finalized all agreed with one another.

The Hebrew manuscripts that were used to translate into Greek involved just Torah from the onset (two to three hundred BCE) and gradually involved the Tanahk in the years preceding Jesus. As Jesus came upon the scene there were two approved Torah's in use which were the Hebrew and the Greek. The Jerusalem Temple did use Hebrew even in the days of Jesus but the Greek was used for the majority of the common people.

This was one of the main reasons that James the Just and his congregation used only Hebrew liturgy and forbid Greek influence into the first church.

Also the original Septuagint is highly debatable as to its authenticity and the Hebrew manuscripts have been destroyed by the vipers who murdered the Jews and burned their literature. I believe today we have six or more renditions of the LXX.
That is one reason that most all rely upon the Masoretic texts of the Hebrews. The dead sea scrolls verify Torah as almost word for word and over 1000 years older than what we use today.

To parrot the rants of bible bashers is to not know the facts of the Torah.

You would look better to do your own research instead of following blindly what others say in here. Once you are done present your research for all to see; and no! the wrath of yaweh is not going to come and destroy you once you do that.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
The Old Testament was written by various authors at various times. Even some of the books that are ascribed to a single author were written by various authors. Where prophecy is concerned and "fulfilled", the texts were written after the fact. In some places it gets important historical details wrong.

The Authenticity and Authorship of the Old Testament

It cannot be the divinely inspired word of god!

Who then, specifically, were those authors and why can it not be the divinely inspired word of God?

a reply to: chr0naut

Did you read the link?

My knowledge is limited so I would suggest you do some research on your own time to gain a better understanding. However, it is my understanding that the authors are unknown. As for Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, most scholars agree it was composed over centuries. The sources that comprise those books are called the Jahwist source, the Elohist source, the Priestly source, and the Deuteronomist source.

Anyway one reason I don't see it being divinely inspired, besides textual criticism of authorship, has to do with the various inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies (as well as scientific ones, but many believers can ignore those in place of faith in god's omnipotence).

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Anyway one reason I don't see it being divinely inspired, besides textual criticism of authorship, has to do with the various inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies (as well as scientific ones, but many believers can ignore those in place of faith in god's omnipotence).

"Divinely inspired" is not a scientific term so it's not like inconsistencies disprove it in the first place.

Some people claim god-inspired people will always be correct but it is of course not true because inspiration is dissected by an imperfect human mind, projecting his bias and distortion to the inspiration received.


Consider this, even outside of the Biblical tradition, it has been said that some people can receive information from a plane that seems to be beyond mere imagination.

The word "genius" describing people with extraordinary insights comes from genius, a tutelary spirit. The Greeks had their daemon and even today some artists claim to have received inspiration overnight without being able to explain it.


It doesn't mean these people act as spokesperson for god, reciting word by word what a supposed deity told them.

It means more like these people had access to a different level of consciousness where they seem to receive insights from a vaster mind than only theirs.

This is what "divinely inspired" means to the mystic.


In that light, there is nothing that indicates the bible wasn't "divinely inspired". It's actually the most influential book ever worldwide so truly it's not impossible if some genius took part in its writing. Doesn't prevent it from being biased, misread or corrupted though.

Doesn't prevent other works or books, even non-religious, from being divinely inspired neither.



It's always important to keep in mind the broader perspective when discussing religions and theology. Religions are all expressions of mystical traditions, and as such, one must understand them from a mystical point of view. i.e.: a non-exclusive, all encompassing deity that is the expression of a supra-individual consciousness.




that being said, everything points to the OT being a collection of stories belonging to the oral tradition, and as such, an assembly of different authorship and writing styles that may or may not have been gathering in a compendium by one or more authors, a bit like the Iliad and the Odyssey, ancient epic of the Greek oral traditions put on paper by one or more people under the pen name "Homer".

originally posted by: WarminIndyWhere did they get the idea of Zeus?

Norse, Sumerian, or Egyptian mythology/religion. Take your pick--they're all the same characters, just different names.