How Did the Deceased Sandy Hook Shooter Get Into the Fetal Position?

a reply to: muchmadness

Good point but police aren't medical examiners.

I'm not entirely sure who filled out what reports or of procedure, but I can see that a cop in that situation probably wouldn't pop open the guys mouth to figure out if there was an entry wound. Holes in the back of the head could certainly be consistent with suicide.

The hair seems weird to me, though in a situation that dynamic weird things happen. Maybe he was going to pop himself on the side of the head and changed his mind. None of my Glocks have stock sights anymore, but as I recall they would have trouble catching that much hair and actually having it get caught.

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Interesting OP. The fetal position could be explained by a number of boring things though. Depending on how he fell perhaps his hand was already in the right position to be cuffed.

Perhaps they were very thorough with the pat down and just didn't roll him over when they were done onto his face, why bother if he's dead?

Perhaps he was twitchy after he died.

I wouldn't honestly doubt or even really fault a cop shooting him.

Way to connect some dot's OP S&F.
Lets look at the facts:
We have a 115 pound autistic boy who couldn't tie his shoes till he was 17.
Loaded up with hundreds and hundreds of rounds of ammo.
Going on a rampage killing 27 including himself in a short period of time.

Adam had difficulties with coördination and, when he was seventeen, Peter told Nancy that he had had to pause to retie his shoes on a hike. Nancy responded in astonishment, “He tied his own shoes?”

Link
To anyone who actually reads up on this story it becomes quickly apparent something isn't right. The kid was physically incapable of doing some of the things they claim he did. He simply didn't have the motor skills.

originally posted by: muchmadness

originally posted by: Charizard


Why is it that you can believe there was a black ops team made up of "clinical psychopaths" who have a disregard for human life and would have no problem murdering a bunch of innocent little kids, teachers, Adam and his mom [...]

Multiple black sweatshirts on the ground outside the car.

All four doors of the car left hanging open.

Number of shots fired suggests multiple shooters.

Front glass at entrance appears to have been breached using a shotgun, not an AR-15.

Surviving witnesses describe a gunman wearing a mask, which Adam Lanza was not.

Other surviving witnesses describe a gunman whose appearance was distinctly unlike that of Adam Lanza.

Chain on locked gate at rear of property had been mysteriously cut.

Men detained at the scene and released amid shady explanations for their presence at the school.

Physical evidence of the suicide weapon having been pressed against the outside of Adam Lanza's head when it was discharged, not the roof of his mouth as the medical examiner claims.

Presence of a DNA match to an unnamed convicted felon from a New York state database found on crime scene evidence.

No surveillance tape of him entering the school.
No surveillance tape of him in the school.
No surveillance tape of him firing a weapon.

How does his mom buy all this ammo/gear and not alert local PD,FBI, joint counter terrorism, ATF etc?

The information constantly changing or not adding up compared to other victims account of events.(classic bull manure test)

50lb of gear and he weighs a little over 120lbs yet can move freely through the campus without it weighing him down.

Man arrested with the camo on and the person fleeing in the woods magically disappear without a trace.

Eh.. personally I still don't believe ANY children were killed. Was there ever a shred of proof offered? Yeah I saw plenty of smiling parents on news reports talking about their dead kids. But I never saw a drop of blood, a piece of clothing, etc.

Maybe I missed it. I stopped following Sandy Hook for a while.

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

How does his mom buy all this ammo/gear and not alert local PD,FBI, joint counter terrorism, ATF etc?

Perhaps because she was legally allowed to do so and people buy that stuff every day.

50lb of gear and he weighs a little over 120lbs yet can move freely through the campus without it weighing him down.

How do you know if it slowed him down or not since there were no cameras? Was it 50 lbs. of gear? I doubt it was 50 lbs. of gear.

The information constantly changing or not adding up compared to other victims account of events.(classic bull manure test)

Classic thing that happens with any event like this. The news reports everything before it can be vetted for accuracy. Witnesses are notoriously unreliable.

I'm still confused about all of it. The evidence does not add up to the "official" story. The laughing.....guffawing medical examiner really topped it for me.
Crime scene photos? Too bad they don't EXIST. Or do they? I'm not a sicko that wants to see dead children, but I'd sure like to have proof this occurred before making up my mind.

a reply to: Zephyranth

It's been a long time since I read into this, and II'm sure this is a stupid question, but here goes: Why do they claim they needed to cuff a dead person? Or if they claim they cuffed him and THEN he shot himself, how did he shoot himself in the mouth (or anywhere) with his hands cuffed behind his back?

a reply to: Charizard

Hey man... quit being a dissenter. This was obviously black ops. Obviously.





edit the poor OP was just trying to show that the cops had a revenge kill... and the idiots bombarded the place.

a reply to: new_here

Cuffing a deceased perp is actually fairly standard. Not sure exactly why.

Firstly, I really appreciate everyone's thoughts here. Secondly, I think the CSP's clear interest in officer WC is huge. They grill him multiple times on his movements that day, and it changes with every interview.

I believe that several cops clearly try to get information around the information blockade imposed upon them by the state's attorney. For example, Benecchi (the very same guy who is visible venting about whatever he saw) describes the perp's head wound thus:

"There was a small amount of blood coming from his head."

Almost everyone else describes it as massive head trauma. It seems clear to me that Benecchi is trying to say that he saw what eventually became a large amount of blood--in other words, he saw it happen.

The confidentiality agreements these guys had to sign must have been incredibly stringent. Yet, time and again, guys try to sneak info past it. A "small amount of blood" compared to other officers' "a large pool of blood spreading..." and "massive head trauma inconsistent with life" etc.

Benecchi, and other guys like him (Cario, for example) are my heroes. I don't think they could have done much more under the circumstances, and I hope someday that the slimy lawyers who placed these restrictions on them--no doubt causing untold psychological dissonance and trauma--are held accountable.

Fetal position.... If he was kneeling when he shot himself (if that is indeed what happened) it would appear that he was in the fetal (cowering) position.

Just throwing that out for the wolves.

I personally think the officers rage killed him while he was kneeling.

a reply to: Zephyranth

"There was a small amount of blood coming from his head."

Almost everyone else describes it as massive head trauma. It seems clear to me that Benecchi is trying to say that he saw what eventually became a large amount of blood--in other words, he saw it happen.

How very astute of you. A brilliant deduction. I'm not saying you're right, because I can't possibly know. But it is certainly feasible, and I never would have picked up on the very real possibility of his statement meaning just what you suggest.

a reply to: thisguy27

A .223 FMJ is designed to fragment inside the body causing massive wounds. The minimum accepted velocity for this fragmentation to occur is around 2700 FPS. However, with certain ammo fragmentation can occur at even lower velocities.

A .223 round leaves a standard 16" barrel at around 3200 FPS. Generally, the round does not reach the 2700 FPS threshold until around 140-150 meters.

An increase in the rifles barrel length, increases the bullets velocity, thus increases its effective range.

When the bullet falls below the 2700 FPS threshold (distances greater than 150 meters) the chance of fragmentation decreases.

That is when you start seeing the straight through .22 size holes that do little damage. The round does became less effective then. However, yawing can still occur and cause sufficient damage. That is a whole other thing though.

A close contact shot (like in SH) out of a 16" AR 15, would rarely just pass straight through anyone, even a child.

It would, in most cases, cause extensive damage.

You can research .223 55gr FMJ kills and see plenty of examples. Especially on smaller animals.

Here is a very reliable source if further interested in the topic.

www.razoreye.net...

Just an observation. Have you ever noticed that people seem to have a keen sense of when something isn't right? 9/11, etc...we collectively believe there is a conspiracy or cover-up and I believe we are usually right. Even when we can't point a finger at why and even when we don't have any evidence...we all just seem to know something is afoul and that government is lying to us about these events. JFK was an obvious one and to this day we don't really know the truth. Which sadly also tells me we will never know the real story behind many of these conspiracies.

Our government covers-up or maybe actually kills the citizens of this country...we know it by intuition...and yet we continue feeding the beast while they continue their deeds. Really kinda sad, stupid and delusional.

Excellent thread Zephyranth.
Not much I can add that muchmadness and Unity_99 haven't already stated except to say that the FBI was aware of Adam Lanza for 6 years already. Every statement saying he "off the radar" is a complete lie. You do not hack sensitive government websites then get forgotten. No way, no how, no sir.
I feel confident in saying we were not given the true story of what happened.
Until some new information comes to light I'm afraid that's all that can be said with confidence.

Compounding the caliber issue is the evidence of 9mm (and possibly 10mm?) hollow points having been used that day, but their use not acknowledged:

i.imgur.com...

i.imgur.com...

Unexpended 9mm hollow points are documented at the scene, but oddly that seems to have escaped attention. I can't remember the document number off hand but will get it for anyone interested. It was the "arsenal inventory" I believe, the arsenal photographed on a table at the scene (the hollow points are clearly visible in the "arsenal table" shots as well).

This next one is not for the squeamish, and I'm not sure what caliber it is, but I and others have thought it looks possibly too narrow for 9mm:

i.imgur.com...

I hope (is it wrong to say that?) that what looks to be bone bits, etc., belongs to the shooter, which I assume it does or they wouldn't likely have included it. This is one of the shots that made me wonder if he was kneeling/lying on the ground, and then shot straight through the had and into that thin carpet (which is likely laid over a hard floor if it's like most schools).

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
Just an observation. Have you ever noticed that people seem to have a keen sense of when something isn't right? 9/11, etc...we collectively believe there is a conspiracy or cover-up and I believe we are usually right. Even when we can't point a finger at why and even when we don't have any evidence...we all just seem to know something is afoul and that government is lying to us about these events. JFK was an obvious one and to this day we don't really know the truth. Which sadly also tells me we will never know the real story behind many of these conspiracies.

Our government covers-up or maybe actually kills the citizens of this country...we know it by intuition...and yet we continue feeding the beast while they continue their deeds. Really kinda sad, stupid and delusional.

I think you are right, but why? I am not saying that SH was orchestrated by our government or some black ops, but something does seem off about it all. If it was, then why? Is it about gun restriction, or instilling fear? I am sure this could be accomplished without innocent children being involved.

But we should look at WC's statements; I find it very interesting that he's given four separate interviews, the most of any NPD man we are aware of.

Even more red flaggish is that the file number on what is said to be his first interview is the very latest of all file numbers. In other words, it looks as if it was redone, later--although the date is given as 12/15/2012. That's the next day, btw--isn't it kind of odd to not interview the first responding LEOs the day of? It could be they were just too overwhelmed, I suppose.

At any rate, if you look at the CSP's interviews of officers and witnesses from 12/14 on, you can see that the individual file/report numbers increase over time. Chapman's first interview should therefore have the lowest number, and be similar in file# to the rest of the officers' very first interviews.

Instead, his "first" interview has the very latest file number.

Here they are (I'd added titles to help myself find them easier--forgive the inconsistencies. They should probably simply be called Chapman-1, Chapman-2, etc.):

00028037-Chapman-SecondInterview (Chapman - 2) (Dec 21, 2012)
00085751-Chapman-Supplementary (Chapman - 3) (Apr 19, 2013)
00183975-Chapman-Followup-StayedInRoom10 (Chapman - 4) (Aug 20, 2013)
00258158-Chapman-ChildrenRoom9 (Chapman - 1) (Dec 15, 2012)

The only other officers given followups are Seabrook and Kehoe (the latter's statements 100% redacted), and in each case it's only a single followup. Seabrook's was just about whether he moved the Bushmaster to photograph it.

WC, however, is given no less than three followups, and they pertain to his movements and timeline (his partner, Smith, is given only one overall interview).

I'll try to summarize the gist of the four statements according to what it seems CSP is asking about.

Note: Chapman is a public official and it's perfectly legit to refer to him by name; however, if people are uncomfortable with it given the seriousness of the allegation, I'd be happy to confine it to WC so that it's less personal. The point isn't to castigate this man (whom many would applaud if he did off the perp, I think); the point is to understand the delay in calling ambulances.

Some are aware that the DNA of someone from the NY offender database was found on both the mailed Christmas card addressed to SHES and the .22 rifle shells which were used to killed Nancy Lanza.
What they are probably not aware of is that there was a blood trail in the parking lot of SHES that led right up to the drivers door of a white Subaru parked there that day that had NY license plates on it.
The blood was never tested for DNA nor the car explained who it was owned by.

a reply to: Charizard Finally some sanity!

originally posted by: Zephyranth
a reply to: new_here

Cuffing a deceased perp is actually fairly standard. Not sure exactly why.

Makes sense, if your "wrong" it could cost someone else their life.