How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

a reply to: FlySolo

That's why we don't tell our kids "you're useless".

This.

Your post is a very helpful reminder of that, thank you.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Would not have a clue, if I did I would write a book about it or bottle and sell it. BUT my observations are that they are immediately classed as special from birth - similar to the Dali Lama and already possess the necessary tools to do the following........

The doctor in PNG for instance undertook fasting, mixed with what I can only describe as drinking hallucinogens (apparently from animal poison and plants) and Ohm-sounding meditation and spasm shaaking for about 3 hours....he then, right in front of me, from a sitting cross-legged position straightened his legs, all the while looking straight "through" me, and stood straight up shirking all the laws of gravity and physics to do so (as if he was helped up from behind) - he then walked straight through a tree trunk about 800mm diameter, disappeared for about 40mins then walked straight back out of it again, claiming he just spoke to his counterpart "in the other world" - I check the tree and I checked it good.

Suffice to say, at that moment and for a long time thereafter. I would classify that experience, and the emotional anxiety I felt as having just met an "alien".

That discipline.

ETA: I worked in PNG, on and off for about 7 yearsAnd yes, I was completely clean and sober for this experience which happened on August 15th 2010 at 1320hrs, being in the Jungles of PNG was a very special honour for me and I had 2 guides that bought me to this tribe after I befriended them when working there a few years ago and expressing my desire to learn and understand the native culture - and being ship-scared of the reality of cannibalism.

a reply to: bb23108

it has always struck me as curious that the same people willing to take up arms in order to defend their individual freedoms are the ones who believe ultimate happiness may be found in a macro-symbiotic relationship that essentially defeats the point of individuality.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: BuzzyWigs
There is more than one way of taking your title.
This kind of question may be simple curiosity, about a psychological phenomenon.
It may be a question from someone who wants to do it, looking for help and advice.
It may be an aggressive, challenging question from someone who doesn't think it's possible.

It's common practice in this forum that the third kind of question is cunningly (or not so cunningly) disguised as the second.
The wording of your title makes it look like the second kind of question, but it's clear that you're not genuinely looking for advice, because "believing" is not one of the things you want to do.
You could hardly blame people, then, if they took it as yet another version of the disguised third question.

You know it's really not a cryptic question, although it is a question designed to provoke conversation. It's a simple concept, really. Religious fundamentalist are constantly insisting that "WE" must believe in very specific claims, in order to receive salvation and eternal life. You have a thread on this concept yourself, with it's emphasis being that those that DON'T BELIEVE are, in reality, Anti-Christs!

You, in your preaching, require a literal belief in Jesus Christ, born of virgin, performer of miracles, died for our sins and was resurrected in the flesh. You have preached that NOT believing in Jesus, risen in the flesh as GOD, and all the religious trapping that goes with that belief, baptism, confession and communion results in a sort of a damnation.

So, the OP simply asks, "How does one force themselves to believe something that goes against their inner compass of logic and morality?" Why should someone ask the Christian God to show them that this scenario is true, in the first place?

The solution to the puzzle lies in the difference between believing "that" and believing "in", which can be illustrated in John's gospel. The key is that believing "that" (believing statements to be true) is ultimately the product of believing "in" (trusting in a person). The essence of faith is trust.

So, first one must believe that the Bible always tells the truth. So, first we have to believe in ...that which MAN has told us, through the Bible, to be true.

You are right. Believing "that" can't be achieved by an act of decision.
But believing "in" CAN be done by an act of decision. Then the rest begins to follow, and believing "in" covers any gaps.
If you ever genuinely wanted to know the Christian God, that would be a good place to begin.

One can believe in a "the Divinity that dwells with everyone and everything" without having to believing that everything that is Divinity is explained and taken care of, for us, if we just believe in the Bible and/or religion.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Wow. And you hadn't partaken in the consuming of the concoction, right?

THAT is the kind of stuff that really makes my hair stand on end. And your mention of the Dalai Lama being identifiable - they show the new 'suspected' child several objects, some of which were favorites of the older Dalai Lama (who is at that point discarnate), and some of which are just random 'pretties' and baubles and such.

If the child selects the former Lama's possessions it seems to be the same soul returned again.

Another phenomenon that is striking is how different siblings are to one another, and how similar in some ways they are to previous generation members. My middle brother is SO MUCH like my uncle.
My daughter is SO MUCH like my dad. My son is a lot like his dad's family.
I have the same creative spark as a writer and musician that my dad and his mother had.

It's so interesting. My mom and I talk about it - is it genetic memory? How could my son be able to draw a picture of Beethoven sitting at an ornately carved grand piano from an angle of the corner of the room behind the player - how is he such a talented artist? My son was about 4 when he drew that!! I don't believe he'd ever seen a grand piano at that time.

How is my daughter such a whiz at math and engineering (like my dad)?
Why is it easy for me to learn other languages, and why do I love to write so much? Why do my mom and I both feel drawn to gardening?

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: beezzer

You're the one that said that in order to "believe", one must believe they have a soul? If you can't converse about THAT, your own premise, that you innocently enter the thread with, well then..............

No, I asked if they believed in the existence of the soul.

And every statement made, but also followed up by saying that it was my own opinion.

Now you are free to mock my opinions, but I am also free to leave.

I generally don't trust the OP or even you in threads like this, but I took a chance and simply wanted to provide some of my personal insight in order to better examine the question.

Maybe I made a mistake.

You said:

Before you can assertain the existence of God, you have to believe in the soul.

Do you believe people have souls, or do you believe that we are nothing more than complex meat-machines fueled by bio-chemical processes?

If people have souls, like they have belly buttons, then they ARE NOT their souls, but merely in possession of their souls, temporarily. The religious implications are great.

a reply to: Sublimecraft
This is very interesting. Would you mind sharing how you came to be there?

And I trust you were not also under the influence of any hallucinogens?

Thanks!

Edit: Heheh, I see my second question was already asked by BuzzyWigs. You probably get that one a lot!

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: bb23108

it has always struck me as curious that the same people willing to take up arms in order to defend their individual freedoms are the ones who believe ultimate happiness may be found in a macro-symbiotic relationship that essentially defeats the point of individuality.

You need to fully inspect whether that sense of separate self we always point to, is actually real or not.

Is that sense of separate "I" an actual entity, or is it just an activity caused by attention constantly creating a "point-of-view" via focusing awareness moment to moment?

a reply to: windword

Religion is made by man.

Faith is a gift from Something Other than man.

Religion is just a group of people who decided that they shared commonality in their faith and decided to celebrate that faith together.

You could eliminate all religions today, but you'll never get rid of faith.

When a person believes in something outside of themselves, you have faith.

That is individualistic.

Of course, all of this is just my humble opinion.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

and @ bb23108

I have edited my post to include all that pertinent info, including a link to a post from last year..

a reply to: beezzer

Faith is a gift from Something Other than man.

Without faith we would go insane. A vulnerable baby/toddler has no choice but to have faith in it's parents, family, environment. Later, as children, we would go insane if they couldn't muster faith in our teachers, police, laws.

As young adults, we begin to have faith in our own understanding of faith and betrayal, as our critical thinking instincts kick in. At that point, we can no longer choose to believe, we either believe or we don't believe in those things that we had blind faith in, when we were children, out of necessity.

There is a push from those who are invested in indoctrination, to encourage us to dismiss our critical thinking instincts, that arise out of betrayal, as our personal failings, rather than the failings of an unreliable belief system. Many religious fundamentalists that attack us, accusing us of being devils and demons, children of Satan, do so because we can no longer abide in blind faith, because we encourage critical thinking in those we perceive as being brainwashed.

originally posted by: windword
You know it's really not a cryptic question, although it is a question designed to provoke conversation.

All I did was point out that the question could have been motivated in different ways.
It could have been curiosity, it could have been a need for help, it could have been a deliberate effort to provoke.
All three are possible on this forum, as you know full well.

It's a simple concept, really. Religious fundamentalist are constantly insisting that "WE" must believe in very specific claims, in order to receive salvation and eternal life. You have a thread on this concept yourself, with it's emphasis being that those that DON'T BELIEVE are, in reality, Anti-Christs!

You are misrepresenting that thread a little.
I simply presented the definition of "antichrist" provided by John, the man who probably invented the word in the first place.
I did not write the epistles of John in person. If you don't like what the New Testament says to us, please don't shoot the messenger.
In fact his definition was more restricted than you are remembering it. He specified those who deny publicly, that is in their teaching, that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh".

So, first one must believe that the Bible always tells the truth. So, first we have to believe in ...that which MAN has told us, through the Bible, to be true.

I was actually using the analogy of perceiving and putting one's trust in a person.
Believing in the content of the Bible is more a case of believing "that". It follows on, as necessary, from trusting in God himself.

Please note that I did not make any demand out of this.
The OP asked how people could do it. I answered the question.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Me neither but then I am a person who over think every religious phrase logically and only accept the ones who ring logically reasonable. But then I cannot believe in faith religions due to my own spiritual experiences. The whole follow by faith is totally false. No faith needed when seeking objective truth from the source. It will be revealed.

Light, chi, kundalini, spirit, the force. Different names, same energy flowing thru the body.

Namaste

a reply to: bb23108

You need to fully inspect whether that sense of separate self we always point to, is actually real or not.

i actually dont think i need to at all. every second i am awake is a fully immersive experience in my individuality.

Is that sense of separate "I" an actual entity, or is it just an activity caused by attention constantly creating a "point-of-view" via focusing awareness moment to moment?

oh look, a pointless spiral into philosophical semantics. i think i will pass.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
i actually dont think i need to at all. every second i am awake is a fully immersive experience in my individuality.

Yes, and this moment to moment presumption is worth inspecting. Your choice, of course.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
oh look, a pointless spiral into philosophical semantics. i think i will pass.

Good idea given your presumptuous statement here. I second the motion.

Edit: On the other hand, it is of utmost importance to understand if one's individuality is an actual entity or is a moment to moment activity or process of attention. But since you think this is pointless, yes, I will drop this conversation with you too.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I did not write the epistles of John in person. If you don't like what the New Testament says to us, please don't shoot the messenger.

Believing in the content of the Bible is more a case of believing "that". It follows on, as necessary, from trusting in God himself.

This is a circular argument for blind faith.
Don't shoot the messenger whose message disagrees!

I simply presented the definition of "antichrist" provided by John, the man who probably invented the word in the first place.
I did not write the epistles of John in person. If you don't like what the New Testament says to us, please don't shoot the messenger.
In fact his definition was more restricted than you are remembering it. He specified those who deny publicly, that is in their teaching, that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh".

Throughout history, that message, that you choose to preach, was brought to the world at the end of sword, and those who did not publicly confess to the positive, Jesus Christ is the risen God, forget about the silent negative, were put to death. Your chosen teachings encourage modern day Christians to alienate, not kill, those who are admittedly nonbelievers, under the same philosophy.

Bang!

originally posted by: windword
This is a circular argument for blind faith.

I am not "arguing for".
Just describing, which is all the opening post required.

Idk, I usually take the scriptures more in an allegorical context.Here's some food for thought...

There is much truth recorded in the holy books of different faiths, even if it takes a long time to recognize it.

I question the value in a literal dogmatic perspective to scripture and religion.For me, those who look at it that way are like guests going out for dinner, and attempting to eat the menu!Lol, I guess it depends how hungry you are.

I look at the scriptures and the messages of the prophets as tools to help understand and get closer to the Divine.Everyone approaches their understanding so personally that it can be very difficult trying to reconcile the differences.The scriptures can be considered a kind of map of someone's experience, as they describe what they have found.

The map isn't necessarily the territory, and when our eyes fail having a compass can be very handy.For me, religion is a belief system.Hopefully, humble practice and faith will cultivate one's higher nature in a way that encourages richer living.Confucius reminds us that virtue is not without neighbours, it rings true spiritually from what I've seen.Our relationship to the Divine grows as we do, and I have noticed individuals of different faiths practice sharing guidance and inspiration with others they feel are working toward a similar understanding.(Beyond appearances)

I feel spirituality is more the experience, one has as they build their understanding.It's natural to question and test our understanding as a part of life.Typically, there comes times when faith wavers.I feel this is meant to encourage us to look at ourselves in a greater context, in order to separate belief from understanding.Then one can see what or where they need to develop more.

I haven't had the same understanding of the scriptures, I have now.It can be fruitful to focus more sometimes on the relationships of the people in the scriptures, to the Divine and with each other.Even though the scenery changes, many of the lessons remain.It's about principles.

On a more personal note, our relationship with the Almighty is our own.If one seeks they will find.Ask to be shown.Working with dreams can be great like this.Our subconscious has an opportunity there, to encourage us better without the distractions daily life sidetracks us with...

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Can any of you help me understand how that's supposed to work? If I just really don't believe, what am I supposed to do?

Live according to your own light. That is the true esoteric definition of religion any way. I don't believe in talking snakes either...

One does not "believe" the sky is blue. They "know" it.

Beliefs are subjective and never concrete. That is the beauty of beliefs. It can be moulded, changed or disregarded. In fact, my beliefs change daily, yet, what I know remains constant.

All I really DO believe in is the Buddhist idea - that we can all reach Enlightenment

The irony is there is no real Buddhist concepts. That is what Buddhism is trying to express. That is what ALL mystical schools of thought try to express. They encourage the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior intuitive means (Gnosis). Know Thyself.

... I just don't understand what I am "supposed to do" to make myself "believe" stuff that I just don't believe.

Nothing. Pick something you do believe in through your own will.

Life is simple: You either feel comfortable or uncomfortable. Stick to what makes you feel comfortable and try to stay far away from the things that make you uncomfortable.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Thanks for the link to your story. I just read it.
Seems we had very similar upbringing.