The Conservative UK Election Majority - Selfish and Greedy or What Else?

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

I see Fox Hunting is back on the agenda, that's a really important issue that has to be dealt with immediately.

Nothing like getting priorities right. Give them enough time and they'll introduce hunting the sick and disabled who refuse to die of starvation.

Really? You can do better than that mate surely?

I'm all up for a good argument but you actually need to have on in order to participate and expect to get a decent response.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

I see Fox Hunting is back on the agenda, that's a really important issue that has to be dealt with immediately.

Nothing like getting priorities right. Give them enough time and they'll introduce hunting the sick and disabled who refuse to die of starvation.

Alas, I fear your jesting could become a reality in time.

I dont see much being reported on MSM, but the protests and violence, (well semi violence) have started in London Already...In the immortal words of Nat king Cole...
There may be trouble ahead,
But while there's moonlight and music and love and romance,
Let's face the music and dance.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978 I see nothing wrong with fox hunting as long as kids in the inner city can charge around on bikes with their pit bulls chasing city foxes and slaughtering them in public

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015

Unfortunately, from everything I can tell; the framework is too complex for us to actually leave even if a referendum overwhelmingly voted in favour of an exit.

Not necessarily. A withdrawal from the EU would still see a lot of the legal framework left in place, as in many cases the EU requires the individual country to implement its own law to meet a certain objective.

For example, the Human Rights Act was a piece of UK legislation passed to comply with EU requirements. That legislation remains (mostly) valid even if we leave the EU. Leaving the EU would allow Parliament to amend/repeal it, of course, but exit from the EU does not make it automatic.

It is likely that many things would continue unchanged - Europe is still our closest neighbour and a sizable market, why deviate too far from standards that assist international commerce - and many of the key provisions of things like the HRA98 have already had a trickle-down effect on other legislation such as the Mental Health Act that are unlikely to be reversed, but the option to do so would be handed back to Parliament.

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

I see Fox Hunting is back on the agenda, that's a really important issue that has to be dealt with immediately.

Nothing like getting priorities right. Give them enough time and they'll introduce hunting the sick and disabled who refuse to die of starvation.

Really? You can do better than that mate surely?

I'm all up for a good argument but you actually need to have on in order to participate and expect to get a decent response.

Do you know how many people have committed suicide because of the last Governments welfare reforms?

There were 49 peer reviews as a result of DWP decisions being related to suicides and that figure is grossly underestimated. Most ATOS cases were overturned on appeal, but many many people were too vulnerable to attempt appealing, because of the cuts to the advice centres.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
a reply to: Cobaltic1978 I see nothing wrong with fox hunting as long as kids in the inner city can charge around on bikes with their pit bulls chasing city foxes and slaughtering them in public

Edit- I mis-read your post.

originally posted by: RoScoLaz4

originally posted by: EvillerBobI've been involved in situations that use zero hour contracts (both as employee and employer) and they can be an excellent tool for all involved.

ever been ON a zero hours contract yourself?

Yes, and it was an appropriate (and lucrative) option at the time. That isn't always the case.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Most ATOS cases were overturned on appeal, but many many people were to vulnerable to attempt appealing, because of the cuts to the advice centres.

I was doing a lot of voluntary work for the local CAB a while back, including an increasing amount of time completing ESA initial applications with people, preparing appeals, and appearing at tribunals; ATOS were complete arseholes and the vast majority of appeals were successful. The entire process was appalling and really screwed over a lot of people who genuinely needed help.

ESA forms were all about the wording. A lot of the questions were worded to move the applicant towards an answer that scored them less points. Horrible system, badly managed.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

Nothing like getting priorities right. Give them enough time and they'll introduce hunting the sick and disabled who refuse to die of starvation.

Don't forget Immigrant hunting too....

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Most ATOS cases were overturned on appeal, but many many people were to vulnerable to attempt appealing, because of the cuts to the advice centres.

I was doing a lot of voluntary work for the local CAB a while back, including an increasing amount of time completing ESA initial applications with people, preparing appeals, and appearing at tribunals; ATOS were complete arseholes and the vast majority of appeals were successful. The entire process was appalling and really screwed over a lot of people who genuinely needed help.

ESA forms were all about the wording. A lot of the questions were worded to move the applicant towards an answer that scored them less points. Horrible system, badly managed.

I worked in the DWP for twelve and a half years. I could see where it was leading and decided that I could no longer ask staff to act In a way that I was unwilling to do myself and decided to get out.

I have assisted a number of people in my local community with appeal forms and they have all been overturned. ATOS were paid a premium for finding people available for work, so if the incentive is there, who could blame them?

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
ATOS were paid a premium for finding people available for work, so if the incentive is there, who could blame them?

Yeah and people died as a direct consequence of their decisions... so yeah, they are definitely to blame.
Their methods were cold and they didn't treat people well, often going against people's Dr's reports and all manner of other crap.

originally posted by: blupblup

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
ATOS were paid a premium for finding people available for work, so if the incentive is there, who could blame them?

Yeah and people died as a direct consequence of their decisions... so yeah, they are definitely to blame.
Their methods were cold and they didn't treat people well, often going against people's Dr's reports and all manner of other crap.

And the Government who put those incentives n place are innocent of any of those deaths? Okay.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

And the Government who put those incentives n place are innocent of any of those deaths? Okay.

Of course not...all parties are culpable but to say "who can blame them" because they were heavily incentivised is crazy.
It's like the workfare stuff too, getting people into any old job just to get their "finders fee"
Making money out of people's misfortune and in the case of ATOS, making money out of sick and vulnerable people, no matter the incentive, is wrong.

I know you're not saying it isn't.... not actually sure why your reply was the way it was tbh

originally posted by: blupblup

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

And the Government who put those incentives n place are innocent of any of those deaths? Okay.

Of course not...all parties are culpable but to say "who can blame them" because they were heavily incentivised is crazy.
It's like the workfare stuff too, getting people into any old job just to get their "finders fee"
Making money out of people's misfortune and in the case of ATOS, making money out of sick and vulnerable people, no matter the incentive, is wrong.

I know you're not saying it isn't.... not actually sure why your reply was the way it was tbh

Listen, I agree with you, but when companies are there to make a profit, what do they do to make a profit? It's the Conservative way isn't it?

A free market, and many more public services being put out to market.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978


I know mate... the system should never be in place at all.
As it is, it should be much better regulated but we both know that wont happen, things will get a whole worse.

*sigh*

a reply to: blupblup

6 employees of an organisation called A4E, who were responsible for placing people into work on behalf of the DWP, were given prison sentences for counterfeiting signatures this week.

I know, from experience, that the contracts are weighted in favour of the Government and the majority of the money is weighted in outcomes. But I also know budgets are decided on spend on a fiscal year, so how you ensure the money is spent is up to you. Wanna use your imagination and actually try to achieve those goals legitimately? Not a chance. It's risky contracting with the Government, but they are willing to turn a blind eye in the right circumstances.

ATOS were given the contract because of their good results on the continent and the fair price they were willing to work for. The Tories could not afford NOT to put people back into work, so do so at all costs. And that included the cost of people's lives, but eh, keep that out of the MSM and lose on appeal, we've saved up to 6 months benefits, each case.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978


I remember the A4E stuff and I'm sure Maximus had a similar allegation although I'm not sure.
Cooking the books and essentially threatening people who didn't take jobs completely unsuitable etc.
And yes, I know of cases of people dying because of ATOS and sanctions etc.

It's frankly tragic and inhumane and as I said, it will only get worse now.

The Tories have been unmuzzled and are free to do their worst.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: blupblup

6 employees of an organisation called A4E, who were responsible for placing people into work on behalf of the DWP, were given prison sentences for counterfeiting signatures this week.

A4E have a veerrrry long and glorious history of taking millions in payments from the UK government with very little benefit. That company is basically a bottomless can of worms; no matter how far you dig, you'll just keep finding more worms.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Have you actually checked out the figures on the tax rates for the top earners? There is a reason Labour didn't really go into it during the campaign - quite simply the figures back up Tory policy. The wealthiest create more tax revenue on the lower rates than they ever did on the higher bands.

This i realise is uncomfortable for many but it is why i simply don't trust Labour - they don't understand how the economy works (actually, it is one of many reasons why i don't trust Labour).

Along the same lines I would argue that the UK would raise far more in taxes by lowering its corporation tax rate to 10-12%. It would attract far more companies to the UK rather than to Ireland, providing more jobs (e.g. increasing income tax and NI takes) and increase consumption (e.g. increasing VAT income). Corporation tax is a regressive tax and Labour has never understood that.