The Proof of What Happens To Us After Death and the Subsequent denial of it.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

MRI performed on a person, proves the exact opposite

So did you ask the doctor if he saw anything out of the ordinary in your MRI?

Do you know how to interpret an MRI? Or do you have faith in the doctor telling you if he finds a glimpse of the "mind". Would you even dare to even for a moment contemplate asking the doctor with a serious countenance on your face; "Doctor can you see anything unusual in my skull, perhaps traces of a "mind"?"

Go on, the MRI is paid for by you, surely there is no harm to ask? Otherwise all your posts are just words on a screen.
(Using electrons by the way - when was the last time you caught an electron?)

The only thing I got out of your OP apart from your usual eloquence - is a new word for me Taphonomy. Thanks for that.

a reply to: artistpoet

pieces of metal with designs and words printed upon them

But see right there is where LesMis world breaks down. Those coins or notes are useless metal or paper. LesMis holds a faith that they represent "value". In his world of absolutes they will hold the same value tomorrow as today. There is no science or logic that "inflation" is a real object. Inflation is a mathematical construct subject to the whims of the govts policy of money supply creation.

In LesMis world simple things like inflation or economic theory or Euclidean geometry would give him migraines.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

We are all expressive and linguistic beings. It was only a matter of time before we started revering our own grammar.

I think it is you who reveres words. Nice how you completely sidetracked the meat of bitforbytes following.

from bitsforbytes...
Did we all assume the same things at the same time? Did this notion travel all around the world with time?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
And yet, after all of your analysis and logic, everything anyone ever experiences is psychic in nature - that is, all of our experience of anything and anyone is a perception, a psychic process. We are always in relationship to everything and everyone psychically (via perception), and always in living, participatory terms. This never changes throughout our entire life.

What happens at death? We will have another psychic experience of whatever that amounts to via those aspects of mind associated with attention and our fundamental awareness, that do not change during life, and are our mode of perceiving during and after the death transition.

But until you become sensitive to even the first aspect of this matter during your present lifetime - that everything anyone ever experiences is psychic (perceptual) in nature - you will never understand what is described in the second paragraph, so I won't argue with you about that.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

So did you ask the doctor if he saw anything out of the ordinary in your MRI?

Do you know how to interpret an MRI? Or do you have faith in the doctor telling you if he finds a glimpse of the "mind". Would you even dare to even for a moment contemplate asking the doctor with a serious countenance on your face; "Doctor can you see anything unusual in my skull, perhaps traces of a "mind"?"

Go on, the MRI is paid for by you, surely there is no harm to ask? Otherwise all your posts are just words on a screen.
(Using electrons by the way - when was the last time you caught an electron?)

The point was, before you took it out of context, was that such procedures are performed on human bodies, the same things that end up in urns and coffins. Thankfully, I've never been in one.

The only thing I got out of your OP apart from your usual eloquence - is a new word for me Taphonomy. Thanks for that.

And what does taphonomy tell you about what happens after death?

But see right there is where LesMis world breaks down. Those coins or notes are useless metal or paper. LesMis holds a faith that they represent "value". In his world of absolutes they will hold the same value tomorrow as today. There is no science or logic that "inflation" is a real object. Inflation is a mathematical construct subject to the whims of the govts policy of money supply creation.

In LesMis world simple things like inflation or economic theory or Euclidean geometry would give him migraines.

My world has not broken down yet, good sir. Actually, it's quite pleasant. And I'm happy to report there have been no migraines. In other words, as per usual, the opposite is the case of what you say.

a reply to: Elementalist

We get it, your anti spirit, Have a nice life then.

LesMis starts an anti spirit/soul/religious thread on average every two weeks; for something that "is not real" in his Weltanschauung, me thinks he doth protest too much!

What happens at death? We will have another psychic experience of whatever that amounts to via the psychic aspects of mind associated with fundamental awareness, that do not change during life, and are our mode of perceiving during and after the death transition.

But until you become sensitive to even the first aspect of this matter during your life - that everything anyone ever experiences is psychic in nature - you will never understand what is described in the second paragraph, so I won't argue with you about that.

Tell that to a dying man, cancer-striken, body near-hollow. "Hey don't worry, it's a psychic-experience." This is evil stuff here.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

LesMis starts an anti spirit/soul/religious thread on average every two weeks; for something that "is not real" in his Weltanschauung, me thinks he doth protest too much!

And you always comment on them. Have you ever heard the term "dingleberry"?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Tell that to a dying man, cancer-striken, body near-hollow. "Hey don't worry, it's a psychic-experience." This is evil stuff here.

A good friend of mine comforted others on her death bed
Telling them not to worry that she would be fine
She had an NDE and had no fear of death

You seem to discuss from a point of view which is solely based on the material
And from your view point you are very honest

However everything is made of matter / substance as is the soul
Of course Science can not detect the soul ... for good reason too ... Not all by any means but some would interfere with the natural order of things and cause harm and destruction ... this can never be permitted ... It is against the code of Soul
You can kill the body ... destroy the Earth ... but you can never touch the soul in that way

Of course I do not mean you personally ... I think you are a good sort even if you are diametrically opposed to my beliefs

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

Tell that to a dying man, cancer-striken, body near-hollow. "Hey don't worry, it's a psychic-experience." This is evil stuff here.

The way you just characterized it, shows that you are not sensitive to this matter and much less, how to speak with dying people about it. In fact I have spoken to people on their death bed and they do understand something about being beyond the sheer physical meat body. I was able to do this recently with my father-in-law and he very much appreciated it.

Not even a nice try, LesMis - your statement certainly does not obviate what I said about everything anyone ever experiences is psychic (perceptual) in nature.

This is completely obvious, and once you start living on the basis of this truth of your actual situation here, you will not feel so separated from, and superior to, others. Then perhaps your treating many of us the way you (or at least your online persona) does, will be more participatory, open-minded, and respectful.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

The point was, before you took it out of context

No, no I do insist...the MRI is paid for by the patient/you...why not ask a scientist?

My world has not broken down yet

Again nice deflection...in your world inflation would not interface with what you can buy with the coins in your pocket. Its alright LesMis, stop trying so hard...we get that you hate everything other than "objective facts". A pity that most of those objective facts that you hold sacrosanct also come out of books. Did you see or test half the things in any common encyclopedia? - until you use the same rigour and intellectual honesty everytime you look at an encycopedia then get back to me.

All you give us in your threads are poetic words trying to pass off as some profound life changing "truths".
Whilst its fun playing with you and it helps to sharpen my wits, all your threads are "variations of a theme"

Out of interest JS Bach wrote for the organ..just variations...

"Toccata of Toccata and Fugue in d minor"
"Fugue of Toccata and Fugue in d minor"
"Toccata of Toccata and Fugue in F major"
"Fugue of Toccata and Fugue in F major"
plus others...

Great compositions but as much as I like the organ I could only listen to them in small doses. After a while the subtlety and the differences between a fugue and a toccata are not enough to keep me enthralled. TRy harder LesMis.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Tell that to a dying man, cancer-striken, body near-hollow. "Hey don't worry, it's a psychic-experience." This is evil stuff here.

"Evil" is all you can come up with. So you with your white coat and some abbreviated title in your name (hint Doctor of Medicine) would tell the dying "its alright you're going to end up as dirt. And thats not evil? I apologize; it not evil...you wear a bleached white doctors smock - that makes it alright.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

And you always comment on them. Have you ever heard the term "dingleberry"?

Thanks, that's the second word I've learned tonight from you - not much else, apart from your usual hatred of all things spiritual.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: Elementalist

We get it, your anti spirit, Have a nice life then.

LesMis starts an anti spirit/soul/religious thread on average every two weeks; for something that "is not real" in his Weltanschauung, me thinks he doth protest too much!

Actually, I'm enjoying this thread. What use is a healthy, active mind if you don't flex it occasionally?

I have my own perspective regarding spirituality/religion/consciousness, but that isn't germane to the thread because they are beliefs not quantifiable facts that I can present anyone.

What I CAN do, however, is share a bit of my story. It isn't all that big a risk because I shared it in a post about two years ago. The only thing I got wrong was the duration of the episode. I had said three days when it was actually six. With the way things are these days, anything you post stands the chance of being traced back to you and having some troll bring you grief. While I exercise caution, I don't walk on eggshells. If it happens, it happens...

My wife gets (understandably) terribly upset with me when I make the mistake of jokingly referring to "the last time I was dead". I can't really blame her, because I've always had the easy part. For me, a total shutdown is the same as the most restful sleep you could ever imagine. It's the family that goes through H*ll. (other than the sore throat and all the pinholes I have to deal with when I rejoin the "Living")

As I said, the last time I went into shutdown I was gone for six days. My wife fought constantly with the team of doctors (6) that were treating/studying me. After 48 hours they had already told her that I was in that zone of 5% or less of brain stem function and the pressure started to shut everything off and begin the battle for my organs. Had I signed the back of my driver's license, I would have been parceled out long ago. (I can't honestly tell you what year it happened other than sometime around the middle of the last decade. It's not something I dwell on. At the very least, it will happen once more...)

What I would like to know, since part of this discussion seems to center around the assumption that all things are eventually knowable, is where I go. My (now deceased) father used to joke that they've taken every kind of picture known to science of my head and haven't found anything in there yet... I have no brain tumors, etc.

Over the past four decades my wife has been told multiple times that the man she married, "is no longer in there." She's been told that if the machines were turned off and I somehow continued to breathe and my heart kept beating, she would have to deal with a vegetable for the rest of my life. At best, I would have to be taught to live starting back at the very beginning and would possibly never function at a level above that of a small child.

The last time I was "dead"... I opened my eyes on Friday and as soon as they got that d*mned tube out of my throat, I managed to croak out, "Where am I? What the H*ll happened? & How soon can I have two cheeseburgers??!!"

I once worked at a furniture plant that had an 83 year old night watchman that said to me, "Ya know boy, dieing doesn't sound all that bad if they'd let me lay down to do it..." They just keep bringing me back. If the episodes that occurred in transit are included in the count, then I figure after 20 there is no need to keep count.

The only physical damage that I seem to have developed (even then, I have no way of knowing if it's connected) is some kind of "branch block" problem with my heart where occasionally the left ventricle has to send a signal across the myocardium to right ventricle because of low oxygen.

So, by all means, please continue the conversation. I've read every post and am enjoying the debate.

a reply to: bb23108

The way you just characterized it, shows that you are not sensitive to this matter and much less, how to speak with dying people about it. In fact I have spoken to people on their death bed and they do understand something about being beyond the sheer physical meat body. I was able to do this recently with my father-in-law and he very much appreciated it.

Not even a nice try, LesMis - your statement certainly does not obviate what I said about everything anyone ever experiences is psychic (perceptual) in nature.

This is completely obvious, and once you start living on the basis of this truth of your actual situation here, you will not feel so separated from, and superior to, others. Then perhaps your treating many of us the way you (or at least your online persona) does, will be more participatory, open-minded, and respectful.

I am very sensitive to death and the dying. What I am insensitive towards is dishonesty. The way you speak of people as "meat bodies" is dreadful to me. It is no wonder that when you look at them, you need to concoct a story of your own devising given this insidious notion. I sincerely hope they do not see themselves the same way, and that they only allow you to continue to concoct fictions out of respect for your feelings.

a reply to: artistpoet

A good friend of mine comforted others on her death bed
Telling them not to worry that she would be fine
She had an NDE and had no fear of death

You seem to discuss from a point of view which is solely based on the material
And from your view point you are very honest

However everything is made of matter / substance as is the soul
Of course Science can not detect the soul ... for good reason too ... Not all by any means but some would interfere with the natural order of things and cause harm and destruction ... this can never be permitted ... It is against the code of Soul
You can kill the body ... destroy the Earth ... but you can never touch the soul in that way

Of course I do not mean you personally ... I think you are a good sort even if you are diametrically opposed to my beliefs

There is a point when we stop talking about reality and concern ourselves strictly with our ideas about it, which we then sometimes attempt to stir into reality by assertion or force. And then when an inquiring mind asks what it is they are actually talking about, that is, what part of reality their words are attempting to circumscribe, what is the object of their attention and focus and curiosity, no matter how minuscule or great it might be, they fail to show us every single time, usually appealing to more ideas (not their own, mind you, but another's), in an attempt to bend a crooked reality straight. In the end, they lose sight of the very thing they were inquiring about in the first place.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Again nice deflection...in your world inflation would not interface with what you can buy with the coins in your pocket. Its alright LesMis, stop trying so hard...we get that you hate everything other than "objective facts". A pity that most of those objective facts that you hold sacrosanct also come out of books. Did you see or test half the things in any common encyclopedia? - until you use the same rigour and intellectual honesty everytime you look at an encycopedia then get back to me.

All you give us in your threads are poetic words trying to pass off as some profound life changing "truths".
Whilst its fun playing with you and it helps to sharpen my wits, all your threads are "variations of a theme"

Out of interest JS Bach wrote for the organ..just variations...

"Toccata of Toccata and Fugue in d minor"
"Fugue of Toccata and Fugue in d minor"
"Toccata of Toccata and Fugue in F major"
"Fugue of Toccata and Fugue in F major"
plus others...

Great compositions but as much as I like the organ I could only listen to them in small doses. After a while the subtlety and the differences between a fugue and a toccata are not enough to keep me enthralled. TRy harder LesMis.

Your opinion of myself and my writings are duly noted. But why you continue to read what amounts to empty poetry, by your own admittance, is beyond ridiculous. If to enthrall you and only you was my intention, I'd probably care more as to why the subjects of your posts are always me, and not the topic and the arguments I put forward.

You're right about one thing: most of my posts are variations of theme. What that is I will leave up to interpretation. But if your replies are any indication—empty ad hominem—you also provide fodder for it.

"Evil" is all you can come up with. So you with your white coat and some abbreviated title in your name (hint Doctor of Medicine) would tell the dying "its alright you're going to end up as dirt. And thats not evil? I apologize; it not evil...you wear a bleached white doctors smock - that makes it alright.

No one's going to tell a dying person "its alright you're going to end up as dirt". Is this all someone of your creativity can come up with given actual states of affairs? Or should I provide a foundation that allows for fairies and eternal life for you to work with when conversing with the dying?

a reply to: CornShucker

Interesting thread, the ironic resemblance of your avatar to the late Beatle, George Harrison, is never lost on me. On this particular topic it's exquisitely apropos. Some of my old bandmates and I got together for drinks when he passed away. I was the only one that seemed to understand that the evening need not be so morose. George had devoted the majority of his adult life trying to come to terms with what life was all about. As we were lifting beers in his honor, either he finally understood or it didn't make any difference.

My lack of an opportunity to go on to higher education has never stopped me from learning when I can, as I go. I'm curious...

Are you trying to Convince or Be convinced?

George is my favorite Beatle. But the avatar is a painting of Vladimir Solovyov, a Russian philosopher and poet. He was also a very spiritual man.

As for convincing or being convinced, it is a bit of both. Writing helps get the thoughts out of my head so I may view them for what they are.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I agree and I am always prepared to back up what I say ... I walk my talk

However sometimes it can be waste of both peoples time

But I do not really concern myself with how spiritual or not someone might be ... in the end we will all know the truth
What I believe in most of all is common decency and life is mostly simple day to day things
Each day is an opportunity to care for whoever we meet
I am sure you agree
So any difference regarding beliefs is not worth arguing about ... there are more important issues at hand

However if I think it will help someone and they wish to know what I believe ... I will gladly converse
It does not matter to me if they believe me ... what matters more is treating them with respect and caring
We are all the same species ... The Human Family ...

However this discussion forum allows to express our views in a way we might not

I know you say you have many friends who believe all sorts of things
Better to be light hearted and enjoy our difference which in the end are all superficial

I for one am not having a go at you as I respect you and your views even if I can not share all of your views

I think you would make a very good friend in the real world

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Thanks for your info on your avatar ... I have found a new poet to indulge in


Vladimir Soloviev

The Sound of a Distant Waterfall

The distant sound of a waterfall
Resounds through the forest,
Quiet joy wafts down
From the dusky heavens.

Just the white vault of the sky
Just the white dream of the earth...
My heart obediently fell silent,
All my worries drifted away.

Slow joy,
Everything flows together as if in sleep...
The distant sound of a waterfall
Resounds in the silence.