The ‘BASALT FLOOR’ Giza Plateau Smoking Gun Evidence of LOST ANCIENT TECHNOLOGY

a reply to: Herolotus

Sweet, can you show us some of the papers you have written on the subject?

Interesting reads belows from peope who know more abou the techicalities involved in cutting granite than anyone on here.
www.cheops-pyramide.ch...

A new method by Franz Löhner
For the construction of Khufu's pyramid granite was used for the first time on a grand scale, mainly for the burial chamber, the passages and for the sarcophagus. This page is about how the hard granite could be split and cut. Franz Löhner shows, that granite can't be processed without iron tools!
Cutting granite with bronze or iron tools?
A new method by Franz Löhner
For the construction of Khufu's pyramid granite was used for the first time on a grand scale, mainly for the burial chamber, the passages and for the sarcophagus. This page is about how the hard granite could be split and cut. Franz Löhner shows, that granite can't be processed without iron tools!

Question:
Do you have any practical knowledge of the techniques of stone quarrying and stone processing you describe above?
F. Löhner's answer:
As a young men I worked in a granite quarry in Germany for several years, so I have an intimate knowledge of stones and tools. First I just laughed, when I read about copper tools being used in splitting and cutting granite and copper saws to saw through them. I then thought - that theory will soon be refuted, they just have to try it out with some granite and they will know straight away. This theory has persevered though and so I decided to build the copper tools described by Goyon [1] (these tools are still suggested today by Egyptologists) and determine to what degree the stone would be worn down and to what degree the tools deform.
1. Sawing granite with copper saws:
First I experimented with copper saws made from copper sheets of different thickness. I used soft, half soft and hardened copper sheets and made saw blades with different teeth (wavy, small teeth, large teeth). Then I tried to saw granite, it didn't work, the copper deformed. As an abrading medium I added quartz sand, then Corundum (a gem with a hardness on Mohs scale of 9) and even steel sand (made from steel grit and used to cut through concrete). But even after hours of work barley a scratch was visible on the surface of the granite block. In the same time and with the same effort I surely would have managed to split two or three blocks of granite if using the appropriate tools, ergo iron tools!
2. Drilling with a bow drill and copper bits:
Of course I also experimented with drilling. I built a simple Egyptian bow drill, as shown on several illustrations. After some experimenting I managed to find the right material for the sinew and determined the right tension to use. I used different wooden rods and even copper rods and also used different types of sand and mud. I added water, water and oil, milk and whey to emulsify the sands and prevent the drill bits from heating up too much. But as much as I tried, I didn't accomplish more than a slightly colored spot on the surface of the granite. Only when I changed to a chisel made from steel I managed to drill a couple holes into the granite.
3. Splitting granite with wedges:
I decided to try out an other technique attributed to the Egyptians - using wooden wedges soaked with water to cause the wood to swell and split the rock. I drilled holes and then put in dry wooden wedges and poured water on them so they would swell. But the wooden wedges didn't expand enough and didn't generate enough force to split the stone apart.

And another article from a © Ivan W. Watkins, Professor of Geoscience in the Department Of Earth Sciences, St. Cloud State University, Minnesota

The article written copied extract below found at \

www.ianlawton.com...

HOW DID THE INCAS CREATE SUCH BEAUTIFUL STONE MASONRY?
© Ivan W. Watkins, Professor of Geoscience in the Department Of Earth Sciences, St. Cloud State University, Minnesota
[The following is the text only, without the diagrams, of an article that appeared in Rocks and Minerals magazine, Vol. 65, Nov/Dec 1990. My thanks to correspondent Wayne Van Kirk for bringing it to my attention and forwarding a copy. See also here for an excellent photographic example of Inca masonry.]
At its height the Inca Empire stretched from Quito, Equador, to Santiago, Chile, along the Andes Mountains of South America. In 1532 Pizarro and the Conquistadores captured the last Inca, Atahualpa, putting an end to this great empire. The Spaniards then proceeded to loot the empire of its vast riches of gold and silver; they melted the precious metal objects and cast them into ingots, which they shipped back to Spain. The "great golden dish two men across" found in the temple of the sun was cut into pieces for gambling chips before being melted (Garcilaso de la Vega, 1961). The Conquistadores did nor ask for what purposes the gold was used; they knew only that the metals were of great value in ingot form. Surely those savages could not have used the gold for anything but ornaments and barbarous religious trinkets; surely they couldn't have used it in their magnificent stonemasonry projects that remain at Machu Picchu and other Inca ruins (figure 1).
Several hypotheses have been advanced to explain how the Inca, stonemasons could cut stones to fit together so tightly that not even a piece of paper can be slid between them. In fact, some of the stones fit so tightly that I could not even blow air between them. Protzen (1986), following Bingham (1913), concluded that the stonework had been done by pounding with quartzite hammers. Jessup (1934) and Goetz (1942) championed grinding and polishing with sand and water. Bingham (1913) and Frank (1980) thought that the stones had been cut and shaped by wedging, using wood, metal, freezing water, or the expansion of heated vermiculite. Arnold (1983) proposed the use of organic acids.
Hypotheses
Hammering. If one tries to shape a stone with a hammer (Bingham, 1913; Protzen, 1986), the smallest inside corner that can be produced must have a radius larger than the smallest radius of the hammer. The mason must be able to strike the material that is to be removed. Therefore, an observer must not see inside comers with radii smaller than than the size of the hammers used to produce those corners. Figure 2 shows one of many inside comers that have very small radii. To fashion these, the stone hammers would have to have been extremely small chisels. Furthermore, when a rock is hammered it tends to break selectively along planes of weakness, such as mineralized fractures. Even if it does not break completely, the rock will chip out at the intersection of the cut surface and the fracture, producing a groove at the intersection. Thus, fractures as shown in figure 3 would not exist. It is concluded that the blocks could not have been cut and shaped by hammering.
Grinding and polishing. This process, suggested by Goetz (1942), could produce inside comers of varying radii as well as cut surfaces intersecting low-angle fractures. However, if a rock containing quartz is abraded with river sand, which is mostly quartz, the softer minerals in the rock will be sanded out, while the quartz grains will hardly be scratched. Indeed, sanding granite with quartz should result in quartz grains standing in relief above the rest of the sanded surface. While I have no illustration to show that this relationship does not exist, I did observe that there were no quartz grains standing above the rest of the minerals on the surface. Thus, I conclude that those beautiful Inca stone surfaces could not have been produced by sanding.
Wedging. If wedging (Bingham, 1913; Frank, 1980) had been used,

Why is it that people are so willing to think that humans aren't capable of amazing things. Especially considering these amazing things were done with hundreds of thousands of slaves, if not millions.~Tenth

Traditional Egyptian "wisdom-keepers such as Abd’el Hakim Awyan say building the pyramid was a sacred project and that those who worked on it were devoted volunteers, not slaves. Whatever the arrangement for the workers, however, basic logistics make it pretty clear that the idea of "millions" of slaves is untenable and even hundreds of thousands at a time is unlikely. One of our problems is a failure of imagination. We assume "progress" is linear and that humanity is more advanced now than ever before. Chances are that technological progress is cyclical and that technological civilizations have existed before and destroyed themselves because they were not in harmony with the Universal Will. This is a belief of the Hopi Indians in Arizona. A quick review of technical descriptions of "vimana" (flying craft) in the ancient classic Eastern Indian text, the Mahabarata, may convince you that technological civilizations have existed previously in remote history. Cheers!

Happy to find that many people contributing here understand that this isn’t a case of time and energy it’s a case of lost technology.

Here again on the Giza Plateau we find a cut which looks like it was made with a tube drill.

But what would the diameter be of such a drill?

And what material would be strong enough to make a cut like this?

And did they possess such a material?









Doubtful.

originally posted by: Mianeye
a reply to: KnightLight

I just gave you an experiment that makes sense when mastered, they even tell you how to avoid V cuts..

Just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean i should use my Sunday convincing you with more experiments.

perhaps you didn't read the engineer/machinist that said...

"THIS was NOT possible by copper... "

yes.. lets argue with the intelligence and scientific data and use deflection instead of ...intelligence ??

and yes... I've work in a engineering dept for 5 years.....

"yes Alex, I'll take the ENGINEERS statement as logical and intelligent base upon the raw data collected for $1000.00~!!"

The ego gets in the way.

People think that simply because we have plastic, and silicon that we are the best and brightest this planet has known. We are the cutting edge of all that the world has seen. No ideas ever presented have been greater than ours.

Humans on this planet have had relatively the same form we see now, for what?, the past 100,000-250,000 years? Sit on that for a moment. Are you a troglodyte throwing your feces at your neighbor? Why do you think they were?

With evidence beginning to emerge that may prove that this isn't our first climb up the technology tree. Why is any semblance of intelligence so hard to believe?

A point was made that the copper / sand method would cause V shaped cuts. The cuts shown are at least one eighth of an inch wide. We are not talking lazer precision here. You can also see the deviations in the cut. Having a V shaped cut only matters and could only be determined if the block is not sheered completely off. There would be a form at the end of the cut, but that could be sanded down. Literally.

But, no copper or other metal saw blades have been found!

You're damn right they haven't. That's a big, thin sheet of metal. Why would they drop it and walk away? You melt it down into new tools, weapons or trinkets.

It is strange how beliefs interrupt logic.

*If there isn't a V shape cut, it is more than possible that a leather band was used.

Experimentally proven. Copper works.

"We're going to put sand inside the groove and we're going to put the saw on top of the sand," Stocks says. "Then we're going to let the sand do the cutting."

It does. The weight of the copper saw rubs the sand crystals, which are as hard as granite, against the stone. A groove soon appears in the granite. It's clear that this technique works well and could have been used by the ancient Egyptians.

www.pbs.org...

Copper adding sand doesn't work according to this man below who has experimented with the copper saw sand combination. Its a fallacy until a person can link a video which shows it really working cutting a granite stone and we can see with our own eyes it effective enough to produce the cuts observed on ancient eygptian work.

www.cheops-pyramide.ch...

Question:
Do you have any practical knowledge of the techniques of stone quarrying and stone processing you describe above?
F. Löhner's answer:

As a young men I worked in a granite quarry in Germany for several years, so I have an intimate knowledge of stones and tools. First I just laughed, when I read about copper tools being used in splitting and cutting granite and copper saws to saw through them. I then thought - that theory will soon be refuted, they just have to try it out with some granite and they will know straight away. This theory has persevered though and so I decided to build the copper tools described by Goyon [1] (these tools are still suggested today by Egyptologists) and determine to what degree the stone would be worn down and to what degree the tools deform.
1. Sawing granite with copper saws:
First I experimented with copper saws made from copper sheets of different thickness. I used soft, half soft and hardened copper sheets and made saw blades with different teeth (wavy, small teeth, large teeth). Then I tried to saw granite, it didn't work, the copper deformed. As an abrading medium I added quartz sand, then Corundum (a gem with a hardness on Mohs scale of 9) and even steel sand (made from steel grit and used to cut through concrete). But even after hours of work barley a scratch was visible on the surface of the granite block. In the same time and with the same effort I surely would have managed to split two or three blocks of granite if using the appropriate tools, ergo iron tools!

originally posted by: KnightLight
a reply to: Aliensun

This is a pretty interesting video I just started watching.. I'm going to be on Egypt all day now haha.

It's Engineers, Geologists, architects..

Now I don't know if they make any conclusions, and before I confuse any more people I'm just putting the video here because so far they are EXPLORING... I hope that's what the whole video is. I don't want an answer.

So here if anyone wants:

AWESOME video !!

Thanks

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
Copper adding sand doesn't work according to this man below who has experimented with the copper saw sand combination. Its a fallacy unless a person can link a video which shows it happening and is effective enough to produce the cuts observed.

It's not theory. The guy did it and the NOVA team witnessed it first hand. If you care not for the truth and facts and prefer to believe fantasy you are welcome to it.

www.pbs.org...

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

So link the entire video a still picture means nothing as proof to me, sorry.
And please don't use the fantasy crap on me unless you can do that. Im happy to be convinced, if you can provide an unobscured video which has enough details added to see who was there, what time/date the test took place, type of saw used etc etc, I notice in your berating people in Ufo threads you demand no less and so im demanding no less than the standard you set for others.

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

So link the entire video a still picture means nothing as proof to me, sorry.
And please don't use the fantasy crap on me unless you can do that. Im happy to be convinced, if you can provide an unobscured video which has enough details added to see who was there, what time/date the test took place, type of saw used etc etc, I notice in your berating people in Ufo threads you demand no less and so im demanding no less than the standard you set for others.

It was 16 years ago, if you care nothing for the truth and wish to remain ignorant do so. I linked you the NOVA website. Copper and sand will work, proven 16 years ago. Feel free to buy Denys Stocks book if you want. Or stay ignorant, your choice.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It was 16 years ago, if you care nothing for the truth and wish to remain ignorant do so. I linked you the NOVA website. Copper and sand will work, proven 16 years ago. Feel free to buy Denys Stocks book if you want. Or stay ignorant, your choice.

Your rude and your replies show ignorance and hypocrisy but that's you mate, ive seen enough of your replies on ATS to expect a reply like the above.

originally posted by: AthlonSavageI notice in your berating people in Ufo threads you demand no less and so im demanding no less than the standard you set for others.

When I claim I built the pyramids feel free to ask me for the video. I linked a reputable source that tested sand and copper and it worked. Stay ignorant if you desire.

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It was 16 years ago, if you care nothing for the truth and wish to remain ignorant do so. I linked you the NOVA website. Copper and sand will work, proven 16 years ago. Feel free to buy Denys Stocks book if you want. Or stay ignorant, your choice.

Your rude and your replies show ignorance and hypocrisy but that's you mate, ive seen enough of your replies on ATS to expect a reply like the above.

I sourced it. It's a reputable source. You can't debunk it and know you are down for the count. Sand and copper work, it's been done experimentally and it worked.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

If such a landmark test was carried out they would of taped it. Please refrain from replying to me again on this site if your replies are going to play with your Rude Razor. You set a standard and you can live by it as well if you cant then don't bother wasting my time.

www.cheops-pyramide.ch...

Question:
Do you have any practical knowledge of the techniques of stone quarrying and stone processing you describe above?
F. Löhner's answer:

As a young men I worked in a granite quarry in Germany for several years, so I have an intimate knowledge of stones and tools. First I just laughed, when I read about copper tools being used in splitting and cutting granite and copper saws to saw through them. I then thought - that theory will soon be refuted, they just have to try it out with some granite and they will know straight away. This theory has persevered though and so I decided to build the copper tools described by Goyon [1] (these tools are still suggested today by Egyptologists) and determine to what degree the stone would be worn down and to what degree the tools deform.
1. Sawing granite with copper saws:
First I experimented with copper saws made from copper sheets of different thickness. I used soft, half soft and hardened copper sheets and made saw blades with different teeth (wavy, small teeth, large teeth). Then I tried to saw granite, it didn't work, the copper deformed. As an abrading medium I added quartz sand, then Corundum (a gem with a hardness on Mohs scale of 9) and even steel sand (made from steel grit and used to cut through concrete). But even after hours of work barley a scratch was visible on the surface of the granite block. In the same time and with the same effort I surely would have managed to split two or three blocks of granite if using the appropriate tools, ergo iron tools!

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The episode aired in 2000.

Secrets of Lost Empires
Series II (2000)
Secrets of Lost Empires II: Pharaoh's Obelisk (1999): re-examination of findings from first series

Download the show and you can watch them do it. Or you can ignore it if you want to stay ignorant.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It was 16 years ago, if you care nothing for the truth and wish to remain ignorant do so. I linked you the NOVA website. Copper and sand will work, proven 16 years ago. Feel free to buy Denys Stocks book if you want. Or stay ignorant, your choice.

Your rude and your replies show ignorance and hypocrisy but that's you mate, ive seen enough of your replies on ATS to expect a reply like the above.

I sourced it. It's a reputable source. You can't debunk it and know you are down for the count. Sand and copper work, it's been done experimentally and it worked.

You do realise that some of the blocks are 15ft by 10ft and above don't you?

Are you suggesting they used 15ft + saws?

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

So link the entire video a still picture means nothing as proof to me, sorry.
And please don't use the fantasy crap on me unless you can do that.

The ignorance is you.