Christian Thread: My opinion on the 12 Universal Laws

a reply to: Seede

I also believe we are not born of God till we die. Every guy and gal must be judged and then are hopefully accepted into the family of God.

Thank you sir. That is a point I have failed to mention to many and the Spirit definitely just worked through you whether others agree or not.

One question I have is about your interpretation of paradise? Where does it come from? Its been awhile since I have studied this so no one take these as something I would call biblical fact. Everything I have ever researched says Paradise is in Sheol. One side of Sheol is Hell, and the other side was Abraham's Bosom(place Old covenant believers awaited the Messiah) or Paradise. Which from what I have learned is where Jesus went to for three days before the resurrection took place. Again I may by misrepresenting somethings as its been awhile.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Its doesn't represent what you believe because you don't truly believe Good and Evil are subjective.

That's not true.

You statement above shows that you can't help but appeal to a standard outside yourself when speaking of moral but you claim it comes only from you....

That's because my morality is derived from EMPATHY.

So you say morals are subjective, meaning What i define as Good is truly Good when i preform that action.

I am rarely certain that my actions will lead to something that I consider good, even though that's my goal, but they almost always do. This is why I have faith in myself, because the evidence has convinced me.

Rationalize the reason it matters that our actions affect others...

We need the cooperation and trust of others in order to survive and thrive.

The moral standard can be found in your statements which repeatedly appeal to a moral standard while simultaneously denying its existence.

IT'S CALLED EMPATHY!

a reply to: Seede

I am now going on ninety and not a bit smarter today than when I was nineteen. If you live long enough you will be the same way.

Congratulations on your long life! But, I don't believe you one bit when you say you're not smarter. You're at least sadder and wiser.

If you live long enough you will be the same way.

My motto seems to be, "If only I knew then what I know now!"

If you live long enough you will be the same way. Life sucks and when you are the last one standing it gets pretty scary.

I know what it is to be totally alone, with no one to turn to................

a reply to: windword

That's not true.

It is and I will point it out again before this post is over

That's because my morality is derived from EMPATHY.

Yea that doesn't explain the moral standard you continue to appeal to that is external. Empathy doesn't show that there is such a thing as Good and that there is such a thing as evil. The statement the standard of morality is Empathy would be subjective in moral relativistic view of things. If I were to say the standard of morality is Narcissism, what could you possibly appeal to other than your own opinion that it was indeed Empathy rather than Narcissism..the fact that your saying empathy is the standard to which we determine there is a right and a wrong is in itself implies there is a right and wrong to be determined...it implies objective morality....


The argument I have made is an ontological argument. Empathy describes moral epistemology.....not ontology.

I am rarely certain that my actions will lead to something that I consider good, even though that's my goal, but they almost always do. This is why I have faith in myself, because the evidence has convinced me.

Are your actions that you consider Good only Good because you think them to be Good?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Abednego

A book with a mix of some real facts with a lot of not so real facts with the purpose to inspired and teach a lesson.

Are you simply saying this because it makes supernatural claims or is there some other reason?

There is some others reasons.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abednego

I see the OT God is taking more the role of a stern parent with an extremely young child.

Extremely young child does not understand the concept of death. I doubt that my 2 year old boy knows and understand what is death.

How much free reign do you give your child? But does that stop them from having their own will and just because you often stop them, maybe even punish them for being willful, does that mean they don't have free will?

In my case I let my 10 year old kid make decisions, I don't tell him this is bad or evil. I just explain him the consequences of every choice he has at hand and then let him choose. he decide if it was bad or not. The nature of human being is to learn from experience.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
Saludos desde Puerto Rico.

a reply to: Seede

Thanks for your answer.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Your outer life is a reflection of your inner life. There is a direct correspondence between the way you think and feel on the inside and the way you act and experience on the outside."

This is the illusion.
There is just life.
There is not an inside you and an outside to you. This is life.

Whatever is happening is simply happening as life.

What is it that makes it appear as if there is an inside you and an outside of you (an inside and outside to life which is one without a second)?
Ideas about you in the 'there and then' - make it appear as if there is a you separate to life.
There is just what is happening. What is happening is not happening to you - this is life and it is not two things.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Yea that doesn't explain the moral standard you continue to appeal to that is external. Empathy doesn't show that there is such a thing as Good and that there is such a thing as evil. The statement the standard of morality is Empathy would be subjective in moral relativistic view of things. If I were to say the standard of morality is Narcissism, what could you possibly appeal to other than your own opinion that it was indeed Empathy rather than Narcissism..the fact that your saying empathy is the standard to which we determine there is a right and a wrong is in itself implies there is a right and wrong to be determined...it implies objective morality....

That's because good and evil don't exist. You don't need good or evil to be empathetic.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

One question I have is about your interpretation of paradise? Where does it come from? Its been awhile since I have studied this so no one take these as something I would call biblical fact. Everything I have ever researched says Paradise is in Sheol. One side of Sheol is Hell, and the other side was Abraham's Bosom(place Old covenant believers awaited the Messiah) or Paradise. Which from what I have learned is where Jesus went to for three days before the resurrection took place. Again I may by misrepresenting somethings as its been awhile.

Yes in a way you are correct. Back in the days that I was laid up flat on my back, I had a Christian rabbi call on me and I was taught the very same thing that you have just said. I asked the rabbi just what happens to me when I die? Do I just black out and that's the end of me? He kind of smiled and then sat down and asked me to open my bible to Luke 23:43. I did and this is what Luke told me "Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

When Jesus was alive He preached about His kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God but he never revealed where this kingdom was except to tell everyone it was in heaven.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

But that was when Jesus was alive that no man has ascended up to heaven. So as Jesus died He then revealed this kingdom of heaven. The very first thing that He did was to appear unto the good people who were in Sheol and to bring them from the terrestrial Sheol into the kingdom of heaven. So yes you are right. The guy that died with Jesus was His companion as they went to Sheol but they then ascended into the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) (4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So paradise is not in Sheol but has moved from terrestrial to celestial. So how can I say that?

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

But that tree of life was here on earth back when it was taken from Adam in the Gan Eden. Now we find up here in the heavenly paradise. -- Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Here is where the rabbi and I spent days upon days reading all about the celestial city of New Jerusalem. I learned that here is that kingdom of heaven that Jesus had prepared. This was the main reason He came as Jesus. It started to come altogether as I read all about why the new celestial body is fed the food and water of life in this New Jerusalem. I learned that Sheol still exists and that there are still some that would not accept the reason YAHUSHA HAMASHIACH came to save us.

Why isn't this taught in religious schools? Well I never subscribed to religion or religious schools so I never gave it that much thought. Most people tell me that Jesus came to save us and forgive our sins and that is true to me but then i realized that I have to be forgiven in order to be saved and i have to be saved in order to get to my new place. That is the first step in getting where I hope I am going. Everybody is invited and I hope everybody accepts the invitation.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Yea that doesn't explain the moral standard you continue to appeal to that is external.

Do you think that governments and social structures represent some divinely created external moral standard?

There is NO external moral standard. There is society and its laws. There is religion and its laws. Laws may reflect a moral standard of "groupthink", however, ALL true morality, as opposed to enforced morality, comes from the individual and is expressed by the individual.

Empathy doesn't show that there is such a thing as Good and that there is such a thing as evil.

Nope, it doesn't. Can you give me an example of something that does?

The argument I have made is an ontological argument. Empathy describes moral epistemology.....not ontology.

That's your problem, not mine. I don't believe your God exists.

Are your actions that you consider Good only Good because you think them to be Good?

I'm an artist/crafter. If someone buys my stuff, it's a good thing. If someone repeats what I've written because they agree with me, that's a good thing! If people request my company for pleasurable reasons, it's a good thing.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

One side of Sheol is Hell, and the other side was Abraham's Bosom(place Old covenant believers awaited the Messiah) or Paradise. Which from what I have learned is where Jesus went to for three days before the resurrection took place. Again I may by misrepresenting somethings as its been awhile.

I didn't mean to be evasive in my last post to you but also do not want to bore you with my theology.
Jesus died at about three in the afternoon of the day before passover (14th of Nissan). The new day of Nissan 15th started at about six that same afternoon. That leaves us three hours of that day of the 14th till the new day starts.

If it be true that Jesus said to His companion that this day you will be with me in paradise then it had to be within those three hours of the day they died. So they both passed from death to everlasting life within those three hours. That is why Jesus taught that we shall never die but pass into life immediately. Actually rabbi taught me to forget tomb and concentrate on time. Jesus and His companion descended into paradise within those three hours directly after death. For three 24 hour days and 24 hour nights they descended into paradise and released the captives from captivity into the celestial kingdom of heaven.

One important thing that is not known is whether the tree of life, which was in the Gan Eden in the days of Adam, was in the paradise of Sheol and was moved at this time to celestial New Jerusalem. This is why rabbinic Jews believed that there were two Gan Edens. One a heavenly garden and one a earthly garden. If they had believed in Jesus they would have had the right answer. They did realize that paradise was in the garden but they did not realize just where that garden went so they believed that it must have been taken to paradise in Sheol. Rabbi taught me that they were wrong and that God fools even the wise.

This is why I decided to clear this matter with you and not leave you guessing as to my understanding paradise. The entire mission of the Christ Jesus was to establish His kingdom just as He preached when He taught us on this earth. That is why He is so unique in that He would suffer death in a disgusting way just to give us life in His paradise.

Jesus did not lay lifeless for three days and three nights. His purpose was to release the prisoners from Sheol so that they would not perish in the last day when the earth would be destroyed. If left in Sheol then none could be saved from eventual and total destruction. There would therefore be not one human saved if this mission would not have taken place.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Yea that doesn't explain the moral standard you continue to appeal to that is external. Empathy doesn't show that there is such a thing as Good and that there is such a thing as evil. The statement the standard of morality is Empathy would be subjective in moral relativistic view of things. If I were to say the standard of morality is Narcissism, what could you possibly appeal to other than your own opinion that it was indeed Empathy rather than Narcissism..the fact that your saying empathy is the standard to which we determine there is a right and a wrong is in itself implies there is a right and wrong to be determined...it implies objective morality....

That's because good and evil don't exist. You don't need good or evil to be empathetic.

Evil doesn't exist?



Please clarify...

a reply to: AinElohim

Yes, evil doesn't exist. That doesn't mean people can't do reprehensible things that greatly conflict with our society defined morals though.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It is you constant glorification of Satan

Wait wait wait....

wait a sec.

When has 3NL EVER glorified Satan?
You, sir, are just rambling. Your posts are nearly incoherent in content. If you are trying to practice up on your philosophy/debate skills, then fine. If you think you have this all sorted out, you are mistaken.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: AinElohim

Yes, evil doesn't exist. That doesn't mean people can't do reprehensible things that greatly conflict with our society defined morals though.

Evil

Adjective;

1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked:

2. harmful; injurious:

3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering.

4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character:

5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility: He is known for his evil disposition.

Noun;

1. the wicked or immoral part of someone or something:
The evil in his nature has destroyed the good

dictionary.reference.com...


Just admit that you are wrong, and have been irrationally illogical about the facts!

a reply to: AinElohim

Evil doesn't exist. I don't care what the definition of evil is. It is a trap used to condemn people based on actions performed in the present without looking at actions performed throughout their life. I do say that your example is an extreme case where his behavior remains inexcusable, but those cases aren't the norm. They are outliers. Morality is shades of gray. The most awful person in the world could go home and love his family unconditionally.

The fact is, if it is possible to do, with enough humans on the planet, SOMEONE will try to do it. We may consider that action immoral or reprehensible, but that person's morals may disagree with you. Since defined evil comes from religion and religion is subjective, evil is also subjective. If evil is subjective, then it can never be fully realized and likely doesn't exist outside of being a label for human actions.

I can make similar arguments for hot and cold not being real as well.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Evil exists and it is fact

You're not going to be able to keep refloating those scientific battleships here before long, and you don't want to lose all credibility so just show confidence and admit that you are wrong.

originally posted by: AinElohim
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Evil exists and it is fact

No, it is an opinion that is hotly debated throughout philosophy.
Logical Problem of Evil

The Concept of Evil

You're not going to be able to keep refloating those scientific battleships here before long, and you don't want to lose all credibility so just show confidence and admit that you are wrong.

I'm not? You stating that something is a fact without any reasoning or supporting evidence doesn't really "sink" any of my battleships. It just shows that you don't know how to back up your opinions.