Christian Thread: My opinion on the 12 Universal Laws

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

To be perfect is not to never have bad thoughts, you do not control the thoughts that come into your head, to be perfect is to resist putting those bad thoughts into action.

Exactly.

Well said. I'm proud to know you.

(Dig intended.....if anyone gets it.)

EDIT TO ADD:
Just in case no one gets it: It was the 'proud' thing - about having 'pride', you know - a major (if not grave) sin.

But yeah, to 3NL - I really AM glad to know you....

a reply to: Joecroft

In my opinion the Eden story is 100% metaphorical. The tree at the middle of the Garden represents the pineal gland in the middle of the brain. When your "eyes are opened" it means your pineal gland is activated, it is what controls your sleep states and light reception.

When your eyes are opened you become self-aware (they noticed they were naked), when you become self-aware you become aware of your own mortality, hence "you will surely die".

It's a commentary on how humans became self- aware (ate from the tree/activated pineal gland) and how that self-awareness led to death (knowledge of it) and how knowledge of our mortality caused the "fall" where humans know death is coming so they take advantage of others for their own benefit, because their time is limited.

It was never meant to be taken literally. Those who do do a disservice to the story.

a reply to: windword

Not seeing it. I don't see moral purity exuding from the biblical god or the Bible. In fact, I find many Christian values to be immoral.

I assume you don't see moral purity because you are not interpreting the Bible with the idea of a God who is required by his nature to be perfectly Just.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I see no evidence of a God that is perfectly good and just in the Bible. I see a personality that is wracked with conflict and frustration.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Thanks buzzy! I'm proud to know you too!

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I assume you don't see moral purity because you are not interpreting the Bible with the idea of a God who is required by his nature to be perfectly Just.

Perhaps you seeing moral purity with that interpretation/idea* ^^^ is the problem.

Because YOUR interpretation holds up YOUR beliefs. And tens of thousands of other denominations see it differently. And MILLIONS won't be 'on board' with "your interpretation".

Just saying.

wow

*(That "God" is required by nature to be perfectly just, that is.)

a reply to: windword

It is in my view.

Lol just because you think its wrong when you do it doesn't mean everyone thinks that is wrong. It might be something someone has to be taught, and even then they might not find it morally wrong to kick someone in the nuts. There is no standard outside of yourself that your appealing to..and your view simply reduces to philosophical nihilism in the end. If thats what you are simply say I am a nihilist and we can move on.

Nope. It's an example of empathy in action, forming my personal moral compass. I remember that feeling every time I watch America's Funniest Home Videos, and some guy gets a crotch shot. I don't feel guilty, I feel empathy for the guy.

And yet some people just find it hilarious....empathy doesn't derive morals...

a reply to: windword

I remember that feeling every time I watch America's Funniest Home Videos, and some guy gets a crotch shot. I don't feel guilty, I feel empathy for the guy.

I'm exactly the same way.....
and Tosh.O makes me gag.

It's NOT FUNNY.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You should watch "Ideocracy".

And yet some people just find it hilarious....

Like you? (See above: Ideocracy)

empathy doesn't derive morals...

Yes. It does. EMPATHY "derives" and DRIVES morals.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Lol just because you think its wrong when you do it doesn't mean everyone thinks that is wrong.

Exactly.

There is no standard outside of yourself that your appealing to

Exactly.

If thats what you are simply say I am a nihilist and we can move on.

I'm not a nihilist. I'm not a pessimist, I see the good in mankind and have faith in the good in myself and in turn, in mankind.

The fact that people can find humor in pain and sorrow has nothing to do with the desire to inflict pain and suffering. Everyone is informed of morality through their own empathy. There is no other compass.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Tosh.O makes me gag.

Can't stand that guy!

a reply to: Joecroft

The snake in the Garden stated something will happen if you eat from the tree, and it will result in X i.e. becoming like Gods… If the first part of the sentence is only a half truth, as you say, then the second part, can’t be completely true either! That was just the point I was trying to make…

I called it a half truth because the serpent failed to mention that being "like God" in the way he was talking about would damage their relationship with God.

But they couldn’t have known what death was, until that moment of eating from the tree…if they had known, they would have never have taken from the tree to begin with…

Plants lived and died. Animals lived and died. Eve was deceived by the serpent who told her she shall surely not die. Why would God have even mentioned death to them if they didn't know what it was....

Yes, God told them the reason for it being wrong etc... but IMO they still didn’t know what evil truly was, until they ate from the tree…which is in correlation with the serpents words, about how their eyes would become opened…

Their eyes were opened means they were opened to the temptations of sin. Notice that prior to the fall nakedness was not a sin. It was the fallen perception of nakedness that was sinful.

a reply to: windword

Lol just because you think its wrong when you do it doesn't mean everyone thinks that is wrong.

Exactly.

Please tell me how you agreeing to this doesn't make your world view reduce to philosophical nihilism. you have no good reason for assuming its objectively true that kicking someone in the nuts is wrong. Other than you think so because you felt it. You see if I were in your position I would say it doesn't matter what everyone thinks(including myself) its still wrong to kick someone in the nuts.

There is no standard outside of yourself that your appealing to

Exactly.

You really don't see how this reduces your ethical view to nihilism ? If you are the ultimate standard for your morality, and I am the ultimate standard of my morality, and Buzzy is the ultimate standard of her morality...then there really is no ultimate standard of morality. There really is no such thing as morality on that view. Its just you making a bunch of stufff up and me making a bunch of stuff up and everyone just making stuff up that sounds good to them. It reduces you to nihilism man no way around it. If you want to concede that fact I am fine with that as a nihilist is rationally coherent.

I'm not a nihilist. I'm not a pessimist, I see the good in mankind and have faith in the good in myself and in turn, in mankind.

Whats good in your world view? There is no Good other than what you say is Good...or what I say is Good...or what Hitler says is good....You don't see good in mankind you just see characteristics that you prefer......

. Everyone is informed of morality through their own empathy.

Of what morality? Empathy is your standard it doesn't make it everyones standard.....

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

you have no good reason for assuming its objectively true that kicking someone in the nuts is wrong.

I never said that it is. Certainly, there's a time when it's okay to kick someone in the nuts.

You really don't see how this reduces your ethical view to nihilism ?

Is everyone who doesn't believe in God a nihilist in your mind? I'm an optimist. I just don't believe there exists an objective moral standard that is always true for everyone, all the time.

Whats good in your world view? There is no Good other than what you say is Good...or what I say is Good...or what Hitler says is good....You don't see good in mankind you just see characteristics that you prefer......

Yes. Good to me is what is good to me. I prefer to see the good in mankind and I do see the good. I also see shortcomings in mankind. In my opinion, everything that's bad about mankind comes from the fear of rejection and/or the fear of death.

Of what morality? Empathy is your standard it doesn't make it everyones standard.....

Yes. True morality is informed by each individual's empathy. Those who have no empathy are called psychopaths.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
I called it a half truth because the serpent failed to mention that being "like God" in the way he was talking about would damage their relationship with God.

Well, that’s what I was asking from my first post onwards; and now you’ve finally revealed the answer…

Both of the serpents statements were true IMO, he just didn’t say whether it was a good thing, or a bad thing…but that’s where the knowledge of good and evil comes into play, because without them, we wouldn’t know the difference…

The thing is, it depends how you look at it; God uses Satan many times in the Bible, to get man to accomplish something.

Someone could tell you something, which is a true statement, which might lead to bad consequences, but they can equally tell you a truth, that leads to good consequences, as well. That doesn’t mean they lied in both cases; people can be tempted by truth, just as much, as they can by lies…

Knowing both Good and Evil, helps to strengthen your relationship with God, because it makes you aware of the difference between good and evil…instead of just being a robot…

Knowing the difference between good and evil is, overall, a good thing, and is what God intended to happen IMO

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
Plants lived and died. Animals lived and died. Eve was deceived by the serpent who told her she shall surely not die. Why would God have even mentioned death to them if they didn't know what it was....

Becuase it’s a story that’s trying to get across an overall point, it’s not meant to be taken literally, word for word…

But anyway, you do realize that your believing in 2 aspects, that disagree with standard Christianity…right…?

Most Christian denominations believe the knowledge of good and evil, only entered into the world, after Adam and Eve ate from the tree; but according to you, they had some knowledge of it prior!

And as far as I’m aware, most Christian denominations, also believe that death (physical death) only entered into the world, after the fall of man etc…which includes plants and animals…

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
Their eyes were opened means they were opened to the temptations of sin. Notice that prior to the fall nakedness was not a sin. It was the fallen perception of nakedness that was sinful.

Well, yes, once the knowledge of evil became known, sin entered into the equation…

Although to be fair, one could debate whether being naked is a sin or not a sin…but again, it all goes back to perception, and the ability to judge between the two…


- JC

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
In my opinion the Eden story is 100% metaphorical.

Yes, I agree 3NL1GHT3N3D1, I see it as metaphorical as well…

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The tree at the middle of the Garden represents the pineal gland in the middle of the brain. When your "eyes are opened" it means your pineal gland is activated, it is what controls your sleep states and light reception.

When your eyes are opened you become self-aware (they noticed they were naked), when you become self-aware you become aware of your own mortality, hence "you will surely die”.

So before their eyes were opened, what state were they in prior…?

I’m not sure about your idea here…Pineal gland activating is generally regarded and a sign of becoming enlightened…and connecting with God spiritually etc…but in the Adam and Eve story, after eating from tree in the middle, they become cut off from God…but the Pineal gland is what connects you to God, so what are your thoughts on that…?


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Hi Joe.

after eating from tree in the middle, they become cut off from God

Adam and Eve were never "cut off" from God. They were cut off from the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life, so that they didn't live forever. God was still with them. Cain, however, was exiled from "The Lord's" presence.

Genesis 4:6
Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Sin is not in us, it desires to "have us", but we must rule over it, according to "The Lord" in Genesis.

8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

“I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Cain's sins of murder and jealously because of his rejection is what caused Cain to be exiled from God's presence, not Adam and Eve's sin of disobedience.

a reply to: Joecroft

In my opinion they were in a state of blindness to themselves, spiritual darkness. They came to know themselves when Eve ate the fruit. They noticed they were naked after eating the fruit, that implies to me that they became aware of their likeness to God, or enlightenment.

I believe they came closer to God because they became "like" him. But of course those who wrote the bible had an agenda, so they painted the opening of their eyes as a sin and against the will of "God". The serpent said they would surely not die, "God" said they would, self-awareness can make you both aware of your body's mortality and aware of your Spirit's immortality at the same time. The snake was speaking spiritually (immortal) while "God" was speaking carnally (mortal). The god of the bible is of the carnal mind so of course he would tell them they'd die, he wasn't the true god IMO.

The true separation or fall came when Cain killed Abel, the first murder. It took a while but the fruit is what lead up to Cain's murder of Abel, his self-awareness is what led to his jealousy of his brother in my opinion. Self-awareness is a double-edged sword so to speak.

Enlightenment is frowned upon by those in power because it frees someone from their oppression. As we know, the bible has been a favorite tool of those in power so I wouldn't put it past them to change the narrative around a bit to make the opening of our eyes a bad thing.

a reply to: windword

My thoughts exactly wind! Cain murdering his brother is when the fall took place, not when Eve bit the apple. I wouldn't be surprised if the role of God and the snake were switched in that instance.

a reply to: windword

Originally posted by windword
Adam and Eve were never "cut off" from God. They were cut off from the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life, so that they didn't live forever. God was still with them. Cain, however, was exiled from "The Lord's" presence.

Hey Windword!

Yes, but Christians see sin, as separating them from God after the fall, and with it eternal life i.e. from the “tree of life” etc…

But Yes, I agree; I don’t believe people are ever cut off from God, but we can be cut off, in the sense of not knowing God, if that makes any sense…?

Also, I’m just going with the standard Christian story elements, from a literal perspective; so that I can discuss them with Enlightened1.

Now of course, if you’ve seen any of my other posts, then you’ll see, that I don’t see it as literal…but that I have a metaphorical understanding of it…


- JC