Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

originally posted by: artistpoet

I would say it is your thoughts and you that are inseparable whilst on Earth
The being may be unaware
The thought activates the body ... without thought you could take no action or even consider anything ... Your awareness of anything stems from your thoughts ... we are users of thought ... and have the capacity to choose how we use or misuse them ... like words, which are thoughts written down and manifest

Are you actually the one thinking? If so, how can you observe thoughts if you are actually doing the thinking? Thoughts are brain patterns that come and go like an endless train that never stops. Yes, we can think apparently intentionally, but is that what you really are?

We tend to identify with thoughts, but thoughts disappear in deep sleep, but do you? If you did, then would you wake up?

If you simply sit and allow the train of thoughts to just happen (or not happen) you will clearly see you are NOT your thoughts nor the one thinking them. Try it.

a reply to: bb23108

Thanks

So what we are discussing is direct knowing, which is not based on the known nor perception, therefore beyond the body and mind, intuitive knowing.

originally posted by: earthling42
a reply to: bb23108

Thanks

So what we are discussing is direct knowing, which is not based on the known nor perception, therefore beyond the body and mind, intuitive knowing.

Yes, beyond all points-of-view regardless of where and what is arising. Such knowledge necessarily requires reality itself to be fully realized beyond all separation. Only then are objects obvious for what they actually are.

Anything else is not actual real knowledge of what objects are - but perceptions of the object based on the functions of the one apparently perceiving. These functions obviously have survival value, but are not truth itself. Just more conditional patterns and points-of-view.

We are not inherently separate from reality but awareness apparently encapsulates itself by identifying with the body-mind, first through the root of attention as "I", then the body-mind's functions, etc. On that basis, materialism is created, and all the rest of it.

a reply to: artistpoet

No, it is instinct that moves us and this is real action based on what is, acting instinctively in the present.
we'll step away from danger instinctively without thinking, even run fast if we must and jump over a fence successfully if needed because the senses are intensely sharp in such a moment.
If action is based on thought, it is a reaction to something.
Thought is the whole construct of 'me' therefore indeed inseparable, but that 'me' is the false notion of self that cuts the self of of life.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Your path within this thread needs to be diverted to a place where you will be in a positive space. After all, spirituality is deemed stupid by one who does not know - yet - it's splendours and light, so why not try to be kind and tolerant?

a reply to: bb23108

Are you actually the one thinking?

I observe and act on (or not) my thoughts

If so, how can you observe thoughts if you are actually doing the thinking?

By paying attention to them ... writing them down ... or considering them.

Thoughts are brain patterns that come and go like an endless train that never stops.

Brain patterns are not thoughts ... Brain patterns indicate/measure the activity of thought

Yes, we can think apparently intentionally, but is that what you really are?

We do think ... but intention is a different thing ... i.e. a choice in how we use our thoughts ... We are users of thought ... I am a user of thought I am not those thoughts ... much like a car is not petrol

We tend to identify with thoughts, but thoughts disappear in deep sleep, but do you? If you did, then would you wake up?

Yes part of me oblivious in a state of deep sleep ... At other times part of me can be concious in dream ... The only reason I would not wake up back on Earth is if I was dead ...

If you simply sit and allow the train of thoughts to just happen (or not happen) you will clearly see you are NOT your thoughts nor the one thinking them. Try it.

You seem to have misunderstood my previous post ... I never stated I am my thoughts ... I said you and I are users of thought ... there is a subtle difference ...

a reply to: earthling42

Thought is the whole construct of 'me' therefore indeed inseparable, but that 'me' is the false notion of self that cuts the self of of life.

There are many types of thought ... without thought you could not even consider spiritual matters or even type back a reply to my post.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: theCheddar

No I do not meditate. Don't need to, nor want to. It was too boring. I prefer to focus on many things, and rest is something I get at nighttime. But I say go for it if you think you need it.

meditation comes in many forms, it is not just mindless spacing out, i imagine you have meditated many times

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: bb23108
You seem to have misunderstood my previous post ... I never stated I am my thoughts ... I said you and I are users of thought ... there is a subtle difference ...

Yes, I think I did misunderstand it in part. You did say "I would say it is your thoughts and you that are inseparable whilst on Earth".

Such a statement indicates that the self-aware being is dependent on thoughts for its existence in your view, right?

Of course thoughts are necessary for certain functions of the body-mind, but they have nothing to do with who we actually are - self-aware consciousness.

Did you try that exercise I suggested?

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: TzarChasm

Your path within this thread needs to be diverted to a place where you will be in a positive space. After all, spirituality is deemed stupid by one who does not know - yet - it's splendours and light, so why not try to be kind and tolerant?

tolerant? this whole thread is a variation on the same old "spirituality sux lets scrap it lol" except the approach is more postured and polished. i imagine a similar argument being used for the eradication of morality itself. what is the point of being nice if emotions are little more than plastic jewelry for decorating a vacant mind? such is the tone i sense here, and i see no reason to sugar coat it, particularly since dear lesmisanthrope appears to have a more cynical taste in philosophy.

a reply to: bb23108

Yes, I think I did misunderstand it in part. You did say "I would say it is your thoughts and you that are inseparable whilst on Earth".

Such a statement indicates that the self-aware being is dependent on thoughts for its existence in your view, right?

My statement is what it is ... The self aware being whilst on Earth is dependent upon thought ... without thought you are dead ...

Of course thoughts are necessary for certain functions of the body-mind, but they have nothing to do with who we actually are - self-aware consciousness.

Yes we can observe our thoughts and should ... as self aware concious beings ... unless we decide to retreat from the world ... and act on non of our thoughts ... but we would be dead quite quickly without the thought of Hunger or thirst ...

Did you try that exercise I suggested?

"If you simply sit and allow the train of thoughts to just happen (or not happen) you will clearly see you are NOT your thoughts nor the one thinking them. Try it."

No need as I have done this before ... My conclusion is always the same ... I am the observer and through thought I am able to inter act on Earth

originally posted by: artistpoet


Who is the seer

There is no 'separate seer' and there is no 'separate seen' - there is 'seeing'.
'Seeing' is what is happening.
The illusion is that there is a separate seer and that 'assumed' separate seer takes on the an identity called 'me'. The 'assumed separate seer' hears stories about other times and places which appear as the now 'assumed separate seen' - thoughts appearing with 'me' in every scene, maybe with a 'me' practicing how to do the future event.
Thoughts very often talk in this way 'I am feeling hungry' but really there is just the feeling of hunger - the 'I' is added, there may even be a story arising about how I should have eaten sooner. An action or sensation happens and then thought will say - 'I did that'. But really there is no 'I' that does.
All is just happening - even the thought that claims it did something, is just happening - there is no one actually doing anything - because the thought 'I' is just a thought that happens.

There is only ever what is presently happening.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

i imagine a devoted adherent of that philosophy to suffer from drafty head space.

a reply to: artistpoet

originally posted by: artistpoet
The self aware being whilst on Earth is dependent upon thought ... without thought you are dead ...

The assumed separate identity is dependant on thought - it lives in a thought construct called time.
But where is time now?
When it is found that there is no time therefore nowhere for the separate identity (the me sense) to live - you will be dead and life will continue but be much lighter.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Itisnowagain

i imagine a devoted adherent of that philosophy to suffer from drafty head space.

An empty clear space that is filled with what is here, to be seen and heard.
The emptiness is full of 'what is'.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

There is no 'separate seer' and there is no 'separate seen' - there is 'seeing'.
'Seeing' is what is happening.

So again who is doing the seeing ...

The illusion is that there is a separate seer and that 'assumed' separate seer takes on the an identity called 'me'. The 'assumed separate seer' hears stories about other times and places which appear as the now 'assumed separate seen' - thoughts appearing with 'me' in every scene, maybe with a 'me' practicing how to do the future event.

All of which requires thought

Thoughts very often talk in this way 'I am feeling hungry' but really there is just the feeling of hunger - the 'I' is added, there may even be a story arising about how I should have eaten sooner. An action or sensation happens and then thought will say - 'I did that'. But really there is no 'I' that does.

Talk is the manifestation of thoughts by word of mouth ... thoughts of hunger of course are a universal thoughts / experiences ... we all have them at times ... it is necessary for our survival on Earth or we might starve ourselves to death ...

All is just happening - even the thought that claims it did something, is just happening - there is no one actually doing anything - because the thought 'I' is just a thought that happens.

Yes all is happening ... No thought can claim to do something ... Only the user of the thought can claim that ... thought is the "Medium" which we use to make that claim ... thought used to write or speak or gesticulate or what ever ... these are my thoughts yours are your thoughts

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Itisnowagain

There is no 'separate seer' and there is no 'separate seen' - there is 'seeing'.
'Seeing' is what is happening.

So again who is doing the seeing ...

And again, there is no seer separate from the seen (there is no who). There is seeing. There are not two things (non duality) - there is not a thing seeing some thing. It is one without a second - seeing.

Talk is the manifestation of thoughts by word of mouth ... thoughts of hunger of course are a universal thoughts / experiences ... we all have them at times ... it is necessary for our survival on Earth or we might starve ourselves to death ...

Words arise after the feeling. I am hungry happens and then walking to the fridge happens - is there 'I am now walking to the fridge, stand up, walk, one step...........' thought happening. Hunger happens, walking happens and eating happens - it all just simply happens and a thought arises that says 'I did it'. It is just a thought that claims it did it.

these are my thoughts yours are your thoughts

Thoughts are just thoughts - they do not belong to somebody - they arise out of nothing, appear as wisps of nothing and then dissolve back to nothing - like clouds in the sky.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Thoughts are just thoughts - they do not belong to somebody - they arise out of nothing, appear as wisps of nothing and then dissolve back to nothing - like clouds in the sky

Thought are thoughts and not all thoughts are the same ... though all come under the category of Thought ... they can appear in one's imagination or indeed Reality such as when one writes or plays or paints or dances or indeed do the dishes ... clouds in the sky are clouds in the sky ... though the sky is forever changing we still call it the sky ...

Nothing is no thing ... like the state of the Universe before it came into being ... it was a potential ... Nothing is no longer a constant state ... It is full of something ... only thought can perceive this from our worms eye view

originally posted by: artistpoet


Nothing is no thing ... like the state of the Universe before it came into being ... it was a potential ... Nothing is no longer a constant state ... It is full of something ... only thought can perceive this from our worms eye view

Nothing is what you are before any appearance appears. But that nothing is the potential to be all that is seen and heard.
In deep sleep you/nothing is full of nothing and when the light comes on (waking/dreaming) you/nothing are full of what appears.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Thoughts are just thoughts - they do not belong to somebody

Yes they do ... Each persons thoughts are for them to use as they choose ...not you or any other