First time reading the Quran, My impression

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
I'm no fan of Islam's nut jobs that do so much damage in the world but I gotta say that the Bible is not just full of sunshine and lollipops.
I think everything comes down to how the followers of both interpret the source material.

True I read the bible and the old testiment was scary as hell!

a reply to: deadeyedick

I'll answer your question with a question...
Something I rarely do, but you'll understand I'm sure...



How would you deal with ISIS/Boko Haram?

Turn the other cheek?

Try to teach them?

Let's say we do, but neither works...

Then what do you do?



I do not think for one second, that Jesus (pbuh), who smashed the dwellings of the money men and cast them out, would advocate sitting back and saying que sera sera...


I think his turn the other cheek attitude was for specific times of disregard...
Not for the likes of ISIS.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: r0xor

To my knowledge there isn't a single instruction in the New Testament to commit any acts of violence or mistreatment on anyone, especially because of their faith, lack there-of, or any other mitigating factor.

Luke 12:45-48 ESV



45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.



^Murder, violence, and slavery condoned. That qualifies as mistreatment to me. Notice too the slaves that were not even aware they did wrong still got a beating.

Nice try but you are wrong. That is telling us that we are all slaves of Jesus. We are all owned and it speaks of what will happen to us by the hand of Jesus and God but it is not giving the ok for the owned to own slaves or for us to use violenc against anyone.

All the violence spoke of in the new testament is by God not man.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

We should deal with them by removing the devisive openended verses.

That can only happen if "peaceful Muslims" petition God for reformation.

If the peaceful muslims do not make a stand and ask God to close the calls for violence then here shortly the military coming will eliminate the problem.

God is a God that delights in Mercy. He wants us to choose Love. With him all things ar possible.

a reply to: deadeyedick

You are giving ISIS too much credit, giving them Human like emotion that is negated by their entirely Demonic characteristics...

They have done things the Quran strictly forbids.



God shows mercy to the merciful...
Forgiveness to the forgivers...

Shall I continue on?

Should I need to explain why ISIS/Boko Haram will never fit the bill of God's desires...

You're trying to advocate reforming Islam to change people who do not follow Islam...

It's counter productive.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

and you are just kidding yourself

while they do not view islam the same as you they are scriptorially correct in their actions.

it will take you to admit that and for the rest of islam to petetion God for reforming the verses.

in other words God would have to send one the give a final interputation of the verses that closes off the verses relating to war.

It can easily happen if it is desired.

Honestly at that point the real beauty of the religion can come forth.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Marwan was inciting violence against Muhammad & other Muslims...

No more than Charlie was in France with it's political commentary.
They were poets. Muhammad had them murdered for their words.
Compared that to Jesus and His teachings. It's very different.
Anyways, the OP was talking about his first impression on reading the Qu'ran.
This is my first impression .... murder.

a reply to: FlyersFan

No not provoking extremists with cartoons, actually advocating physical attacks on Muslims & Muhammad.


Not even close to being the same.

a reply to: deadeyedick

How can they be "scriptorially correct" when going against the Quran?

This is a useless conversation if you think ISIS can be reformed with Love.


Only one person here is kidding themself.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass.


. GREAT. Post.

i think like that on all religion.

OP its good you have taken the time to actually read the text, and don't let anyone make you feel bad about your initial reaction to it. I'd say the same if you liked it.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
The others were also reasonably more than just freedom of expression jobs.

What about Abu Afak? I cannot find anything that shows he was violent, only resistant to converting from Judaism.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Well that one is difficult to know, personally...

Sirat RasulAllah is where the details of the story are written...

But I can't seem to find it online. There may be an Arabic version online, but that would do me no good really.

The content of the poems would have played a part, I'm sure.




I can't say it was worthy of killing the guy... But my knowledge of the entire story is minimal.


I'll concede, on my current knowledge, Abu Afak may not have been deserving of the fate that befell him.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
I'll concede, on my current knowledge, Abu Afak may not have been deserving of the fate that befell him.

Does this not lead to a rather intresting conundrum?

Should the person upheld as founding a religion that espouses peace not be held to the same standard?

As a former Christian I did not have an issue with the message of Jesus as to me he did not appear to act in a hypocritical manner (it had more to do with the dogma and practitioners), why should Mohammed not be held to the same standard?

Is it acceptable for the Prophet to slaughter those who did not want to convert to his religion?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Charlie,

Do you believe Muhammad is a model of ideal human behaviour ?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Of course it's not acceptable...

Which is why my favourite Quran verse is in my signature...

It was directed at Muhammad to keep him in his place, not to align himself with God...

Strictly telling him not to force conversion, for if God willed, that would already be the case...


I've always found that this idea that Islam "demands conversion or death" to be negated by the core tenet of the free will we were all given...

& what man, even a Prophet, has the right to remove someone's free will to decide?



Bearing that in mind, I would like to know all the details surrounding Abu Afak.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Sorry I was away. I found the verse Chapter 2:63 Surely, the believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians-whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and does good deeds-shall have their reward with the lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

Jews and Christians don't believe in Allah so according to the Quran what happens to nonbelievers they get severely punished in this world and the next. Chapter 3:57

we are an evil companion 4:39 , curse the people of the Sabbath 4:48...

And your point about Kafirs don't think it is going to happen to them is no big deal. It is a big deal and the fact you have those ideas tells me something about you. You take this Quran as gods word you have to go by it and if the first 5 chapters are anything to go by it is a hateful book. But if you take it as a lot of Christians take their bible and dismiss some or a lot of parts then as you say it is no big deal.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
Strictly telling him not to force conversion, for if God willed, that would already be the case...


I've always found that this idea that Islam "demands conversion or death" to be negated by the core tenet of the free will we were all given...

& what man, even a Prophet, has the right to remove someone's free will to decide?

But it appears, at least superficially, that this is exactly what happened.

Bearing that in mind, I would like to know all the details surrounding Abu Afak.

I have been searching but cannot find anything that contradicts this anecdote, albeit my understanding of Arabic is very limited.

a reply to: M5xaz

I idolise no one...

Nor do I model myself on anyone else, no matter who they are.



So that would be a question for someone else I guess.

a reply to: celticdog

But my ideals do not affect you.


If I believe that unbelievers will burn in hell... So be it!

I don't preach it.


I don't tell people they should believe or they will burn in hell.



My sig will answer that!



Hateful book to who?

People in the afterlife, who don't believe our version of the afterlife?


LoL!


Aside from the fact I don't hate unbelievers, nor does the Quran teach to hate unbelievers, I don't see how that is any of an unbelievers concern.

It's a paradox...


"Your God wants to send me to hell"
"Yes?"
"Then he is evil"
"No, firstly, you do not dictate afterlife morality my God does, and you do not believe in my God anyways, so what do you care for?"
"But, but... Your God wants to send me to hell"...

And again... Around and around it goes!



Believe what resonates with your Soul...
I'll believe what resonates with my Soul...

You can judge my "ideals"...
I'll laugh of the Judgement of a mere mortal...


Salam Alaykum.

a reply to: TruthxIsxInxThexMist

Agreed-I also seem to remember a tactic used by islam-it starts with a "t"-basically telling the same lie over and over until people finally start believing it. ("if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor"-for example)