Chapel Hill shooting: Craig Stephen Hicks condemned all religions on Facebook prior to 'Muslim mass

a reply to: mOjOm

Maybe I can articulate it this way it might help. Understand this is not a perfect example.

Should all people who are from America agree to a political ideology because we all come from a Nation with the U.S. Constitution?
I dunno lets how how that works.

Why can we not all just agree?

Because there are wildly different ideas on what the document in this case the Constitution means when it makes certain assertions. Therefore what is legal and what is not legal becomes a dispute, and to give up a guiding principle of your faith for the sake of ecumenicism would for all parties be a denial of Gods will. Its one thing to get along its quite another to displease the almighty.


We have the same foundational document right?

Yes we do, but see above.


Now there might be a temptation to say, "Yea but we in the U.S. don't fight over our understanding of the Constitution."

But that has not always been true we had the civil war right?

a reply to: Punisher75

No, that's a perfect example and I totally see how they are similar. However the difference is still plain to see as well. For example we have the Left and Right Politically and they are and will probably always be at odds with each other however they do, or at least they have in the past, at least acted someone civil and held some common interest that would each respect. More importantly they both accept the others position when needed. A Rep. president would give way to a Dem. President or Rep Congress to a Dem Congress and so forth. They may not like it but they accept it.

The Abrahamic Religions refuse to accept the others validity at all and most certainly won't accept any other Non-Religious ideals either. They all hold on to the idea that they have the only truth and will not even debate the possibility that they may be wrong and will fight to the death over it, even amongst other Religions of the Same Origin.

Do you see where the difference is???

a reply to: muse7

Let's not conflate heinous behaviour with mental illness shall we, people are perfectly able to kill without having to be mentally ill.

It's a dangerous trend because it could lead to carte blanche labelling of heterodox behaviour as mental illness, a precedent that can already be observed in the latest DSM.

Fit the mold or you'll get the stamp.

Not saying this man isn't mentally ill, he very well could be, let's not jump to conclusions though.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

Do sane people murder people? Honest question. Isn't the very act of murder insanity? Momentary or not....

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

I personally think this is a case of where someone snapped under stress and over reacted, nothing more. Just look at all the anger, blame, division, etc. in the world today, or at least as far as it's represented. We have a looming financial crisis, continuous war, political corruption everywhere, social division in every possible form be it race, religion, class, etc. constant fear and BS news, police violence, job loss, bla bla bla...I could go on all day. In fact it's hard to find something positive even when something good does happen because the context of it all is our own pending destruction.

Beautiful sunset in the context of pollution and Global Warming. Funny Youtube of kittens with a comment section full of trolls calling you a fag because you like cats. Just got a raise at work but next year your job goes to china and that extra raise just gets you taxed more. Oh, hey look how cool those dolphins swimming are, it's too bad they're swimming in an oil spill. What about a beautiful new baby, everyone love that right. Well it's too bad the future looks bad for that new baby with education he can't afford, he'll be on pharma drugs by age 2, probably has ADHD already and he'll be eating Aspertame and GMO food his whole life.

In that context does it really seem hard to believe that an argument over parking might just be the straw that breaks the camels back?? It's not the parking spot that caused it, it's just the match that lit the fuse.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: Punisher75

No, that's a perfect example and I totally see how they are similar. However the difference is still plain to see as well. For example we have the Left and Right Politically and they are and will probably always be at odds with each other however they do, or at least they have in the past, at least acted someone civil and held some common interest that would each respect. More importantly they both accept the others position when needed. A Rep. president would give way to a Dem. President or Rep Congress to a Dem Congress and so forth. They may not like it but they accept it.

The Abrahamic Religions refuse to accept the others validity at all and most certainly won't accept any other Non-Religious ideals either. They all hold on to the idea that they have the only truth and will not even debate the possibility that they may be wrong and will fight to the death over it, even amongst other Religions of the Same Origin.

Do you see where the difference is???

Okay I understand that the difference may be difficult, if you are not a believer of any of the faiths above.

It might be best to extrapolate how huge the differences are. (I don't know as much about the Muslim Faith so maybe Charlie could chime in here if he is willing)

In Old Judaism you were seen as righteous by God for both your faith and your works. (works being how you behaved and if you performed the right temple work and held to the right feasts etc) and were able to get Salvation through those two things.
The Messiah is supposed to come, but has not yet come and when he does he will deliver Israel from its earthy foes.


In Christianity a mans works don't mean anything at all because mankind is inherently bad, and from bad trees bad fruit grows so to speak.
Salvation comes only through your faith in Christ and his work on the Cross. Christians Believe that not only has the Jewish Messiah come in the form of Christ but that Christ is God almighty made flesh to sacrifice himself to save us from our sins. (This causes tension in both the Jewish Faith because it makes Jewish Religious law null and void, and Both Muslims and Jews have difficulty with the trinity and the ability to remain Monotheistic. Both Jews and Muslims would think that the Worship of Christ is a denial of God because they do not hold to this idea of Christ)
Christians are still supposed to do good works but not because it plays a part in their personal salvation but as a demonstration of their devotion and willingness to be more like God.

I am not sure exactly what Muslims traditionally believe, however I do know that they think Christ was an important Prophet but not God himself.
So of course if they believe in God but don't believe that Christ was God made flesh then they would see the worship of Christ as idolatry.

Maybe Charles would be willing give a better summation of the Muslim faith as my knowledge of that religion is super shaky at best.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: Punisher75

No, that's a perfect example and I totally see how they are similar. However the difference is still plain to see as well. For example we have the Left and Right Politically and they are and will probably always be at odds with each other however they do, or at least they have in the past, at least acted someone civil and held some common interest that would each respect. More importantly they both accept the others position when needed. A Rep. president would give way to a Dem. President or Rep Congress to a Dem Congress and so forth. They may not like it but they accept it.

The Abrahamic Religions refuse to accept the others validity at all and most certainly won't accept any other Non-Religious ideals either. They all hold on to the idea that they have the only truth and will not even debate the possibility that they may be wrong and will fight to the death over it, even amongst other Religions of the Same Origin.

Do you see where the difference is???

It's on thing to embrace a fleeting political necessity which has been vanishingly rare lately, and it is quite another to ask people to compromise when doing so is possibly imperiling their immortal souls.

Surely you can understand that.

For example, Christians believe that Christ was the son of God and God at the same time. Muslims believe that Christ was merely a human prophet albeit one of the most revered ones. The two takes on Christ are completely different.

By asking a Christian to take the Muslim view, you are telling the Christian to remove THE core tenant of the Christian faith - salvation through faith and belief in Christ's divine nature. You are asking us to imperil our immortal souls.

By asking a Muslim to compromise of this, you are asking them to compromise the nature of God who for them is perfect and utterly singular. To ascribe any divinity to Christ is to inject the potential that Allah is not monotheistic or One Supreme being. You are asking them to imperil their immortal souls.

This is far, far different than politics.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

IMO this is what happens when you remove religion and allow the government to dictate morality.

Really now, so that is your takeaway from this.




Is that another case of "what happens when you remove religion"? Maybe with him you have a different point of view.

a reply to: Punisher75

The basics of Islam is devotion to God, love for others, charity for the needy & the pursuit of righteousness.

Pretty similar tenets in the 3 Faiths.

We do have a few different feelings about Jesus compared to Christianity...
Prophethood rather than divinity...
& escaping before being Crucified...

But he is the Messiah & will return as far as Muslims are concerned.

a reply to: Punisher75

Ok, but the details about the differences aren't the point. I mean from my position you're all kinda crazy so it doesn't matter why one of you might be more crazy than the other or for what reason. You guys have to figure that out amongst yourselves, which is the point I'm making.

You see, I'm not here to judge who is correct or not dealing with your Religions. I accept that my opinion is no longer valid with any of you and that's fine with me. I don't want to join any of your organizations anyway the way they are now. The way I see it is that we are all sorta stuck with each other and I can accept a muslim just like I can a Christian or even a Satanist for that matter. Just as long as nobody starts shoving their issues in my face, I'll do the same right back. I live by me you live by you and it's win win. The problem is that some members of these groups refuse to get along and we all suffer for it even those of us who aren't even in any of the groups and we're getting sick of it. We really don't care how you work it out just as long as you do finally work it out somehow.

It's like trying to get a team of strangers together to play some basketball but you have a few guys that just refuse to work together or even play fair regardless of what team they're on and so nobody gets to play because the game can't even begin.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Careful, Brejvik is not a religious Christian. In his own manifesto, he himself says he only uses the descriptor inasmuch as he says he believes that Western Civ owes much to Christianity as one of its main influences. As far as being religious? No he says he was not at all.

a reply to: mOjOm

See? It isn't so much that certain groups can't get along. It's more that human nature in general makes it more or less impossible.

It doesn't really matter what group we are talking about - it could even be your group. There will always be the person who can't stand there being other people who think and believe differently and goes on a quest to attempt to impose his or her personal version of morality on everyone else who is different.

That is a given, and it's pure human nature. People don't like to be different.

a reply to: Grimpachi

I'm not sure if Breivik claimed any religion after his attack.

But he was heavily influenced by staunch Zionist Islamophobe Pamela Geller according to his journal.



I think, not sure, think his actions were a result of increasing Islamic radicalisation across Europe...

Or at least the perception of such.


Rather than motivated by his own Faith, whatever that was.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Punisher75

The basics of Islam is devotion to God, love for others, charity for the needy & the pursuit of righteousness.

Pretty similar tenets in the 3 Faiths.

We do have a few different feelings about Jesus compared to Christianity...
Prophethood rather than divinity...
& escaping before being Crucified...

But he is the Messiah & will return as far as Muslims are concerned.

Thanks for the info. I did not wanna speak for a Muslim when I knew there was one about, who can speak for themselves.

a reply to: ketsuko

The difference is that I may not agree with you and you with me and maybe we both think the other is wrong but for you it's about "your immortal soul" and "divine authority" and so on. For me it's about a difference between you and I. I don't fear that if I'm wrong I'm then punished forever for a simple mistake based on my misunderstanding or bad logic. I understand being wrong or making a bad choice has consequences sure, but to believe that my "immortal soul" is being weighed on whether or not I allow gays to marry or didn't pray this week or had some dirty thoughts is just insane IMO and going way too far in allowing my ego to assume importance over things.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: Punisher75

Ok, but the details about the differences aren't the point.
You asked why we cant all just agree, and thus the differences are in fact the point I think.
I mean from my position you're all kinda crazy so it doesn't matter why one of you might be more crazy than the other or for what reason.
Thanks for the insult. LOL
You guys have to figure that out amongst yourselves, which is the point I'm making.
But we have, we have agreed to disagree LOL

You see, I'm not here to judge who is correct or not dealing with your Religions. I accept that my opinion is no longer valid with any of you and that's fine with me. I don't want to join any of your organizations anyway the way they are now. The way I see it is that we are all sorta stuck with each other and I can accept a muslim just like I can a Christian or even a Satanist for that matter. Just as long as nobody starts shoving their issues in my face, I'll do the same right back. I live by me you live by you and it's win win. The problem is that some members of these groups refuse to get along and we all suffer for it even those of us who aren't even in any of the groups and we're getting sick of it.
Ah if only the whole world do the same. I mean I don't wanna go to war over something in South East Asia, or Libya or Iraq, after all those are all earthly concerns. And yet I am forced to deal with it anyway. I am kinda sick of it myself, but alas such is life.
We really don't care how you work it out just as long as you do finally work it out somehow. We have, I dont think Christians and Muslims and Jews have gone to war over religion for a really long time. Property, Oil and Money now that's a different story.

It's like trying to get a team of strangers together to play some basketball but you have a few guys that just refuse to work together or even play fair regardless of what team they're on and so nobody gets to play because the game can't even begin.

originally posted by: Punisher75

Thanks for the insult. LOL

LOL. You know what I mean tho obviously. At one time I considered myself Christian as well. I went to the Wed. night youth group stuff and all that too. A lot of stuff I still think is good too, but the more "churchy" for lack of better words, it got the more I had issues until the whole thing turned me off completely. I found a much more clear and actually similar message in other religions or philosophy but can also find the very same message in all of them. It's just it get's clouded over by each organizations dogma and traditions.

Hopefully you're right about how you all get along now. I'm not sure if everyone agrees with you, but I certainly hope you're right because I don't know if humanity can take much more stress and division. We're coming apart at the seems for various reasons and even if it's too late to fix it, the least we can do is try and enjoy one another before it's all over.

a reply to: ketsuko

You should recheck that.

The manifesto states its author is "100 percent Christian",[4] but he is not "excessively religious"[4] and considers himself a "cultural Christian" and a "modern-day crusader".[3][4] His manifesto states "I'm not going to pretend I'm a very religious person, as that would be a lie", calls religion a crutch and a source for drawing mental strength, and says "I've always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment." Regarding the term cultural Christian, which he says means preserving European culture, he notes, "It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian-atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy...)"[3][181] Furthermore, Breivik stated that "myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God."[3][191] Nevertheless, he stated that he planned to pray to God seeking for his help during his attacks

Deputy police chief Roger Andresen initially told reporters that information on Breivik's websites was "so to speak, Christian fundamentalist"

link

You can interpret that any way you want. According to psychiatrists he wasn't crazy.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Well he claimed a religion before and after the attacks as to his motivation normally I would say he was crazy but according to the shrinks they say he wasn't, but that wasn't really the point I was trying to make.

MSB claimed those killings and I quote "IMO this is what happens when you remove religion and allow the government to dictate morality" so I was wondering if he think the same about the self-professed crusader.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

Depends upon your point of view.