Was there really an advanced race living before the ice age?

originally posted by: Judgie
You guys (trolls) have not proposed any evidence at all to the contrary, all you are trying to achieve is ridicule which is a shame, because at the end of the day you are educated people I at least hope, made of flesh and blood like the rest of us, with families and loved ones that could enjoy to no end the splendors that will systematically be exposed in time. And they will be exposed in time.

So people who disagree with your thesis are now trolls because they haven't provided you with acceptable evidence contrary to said thesis? You do realize that you've got it backwards right? If the accepted version of science states X and X is based on decades of research, peer reviewed data and testable hypothesis and theorems and YOU believe X is incorrect and propose Y as the counterpoint, the onus then lies on YOU to provide citations and evidence in support of Y. X, has for all intents and purposes been verified(though depending on particulars that may or may not always be the case), therefore its you're job to prove Y as the superior hypothesis and with enough data and evidence, a new theory. Disagreement does not make one a troll, it makes one interested in discussing what is currently known and verifiable within a margin of error for veracity.
The "Ice Age" covering much of N. America, Northern Europe and Asia, which ended (based on the parameters of your actual question) ~15 KYA and began ~110 KYA prior to that. It's up to you to demonstrate what evidence there is in support of an advanced or technologically superior civilization that existed prior to H. Sapiens leaving Africa. This limits your search in some ways and at the same time, allows you to narrow your focus depending on geographical range. If you want to stick w. H. Sapiens then East and South Africa would be where you want to look. If you want to look in other directions, Western Europe would narrow your focus to Neanderthal and East Europe/West Asia and as far across northern Asia as Berringia(depending on your time frame of course as there may or may not have been dry land connecting N. America and E. Asia) you could be looking at Neanderthal or Denisovans. If you want to look farther back, then I would suggest again, East/South Africa as well as Anatolia into the Caucuses and narrow your search down to H. Erectus in its varieties.

How did they date this diorite? oh wait they do not have the most fathomable clue, they just think because they found it near some site with skeletal remains present it must have been them.

it's really not that ignorantly simple. While a dated set of remains will lend itself to assisting the establishment of dating, it is not in itself the only criteria. The geological strata(I.E. how deep something was found, how many layers of deposition are above the item in question, what other flora or fauna remains were found in the same soil samples amongst others) gives a great deal of information. There is never just 1 dating method applied to an artifact or remains found. Cross referencing several methods is crucial to getting the estimated date range.

If I owned the Mona Lisa, doesn't mean I painted it, I hope this analogy doesn't go too far over your head.

No, it doesn't mean you painted it but if it were buried alongside of you, it would indicate that ,within a margin of error that will vary depending on when you're remains were located alongside whatever was left of the Mona Lisa, that the painting was at least possessed by you. The difference with the Mona Lisa is that the artwork itself can be tested to determine the age of the materials, frame and origins of pigment used in creating the paint. A better analogy would be to take the original Mona Lisa and place it side by side with an incredible forgery that would, upon visual inspection, fool the best art historians of the world. The real test would then be to test the paints themselves from each portrait. This would give a very definitive identification and timeframe within which each piece of art were created. The dead giveaway for the forgery, if recently done, would be radioactive signatures within the paints and pigments that will only be present in oil paints created after 1945 when the U.S. tested the 1st atomic weapon. the radiation since atmospheric atomic tests began has seeped into literally everyone and everything created or born after 1945 and leaves a testable residual trace.

You try to talk of what is possible without even having the slightest education in construction or engineering. I have that, I know we cannot, not unless we spent many years even shaping a singular block in a wall. Laser beams? No, all matter is made up of energy at a sub atomic level, what creates energy? well this is simple it is waves, sound, resonances. We can use sound frequencies to cut, in fact the whole system of sacred geometry is based off of resonance patterns. Unfortunately we choose not to even explore this technology. Why oh wait I have already addressed this issue. Money

I find it fascinating that you were just yelling about people trolling the thread without supporting their statements but here you are in all your splendor and glory making statements of affirmation yet no citations or supporting links. Apparently the evidence isn't as important to you as you make it out to be initially. It's only important for those who don't agree to support and cite.

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a reply to: peter vlar

Ed Leedskalnin used a chain and pully? Hrmmm... The level of understanding of even high school physics dumb founds me with some people. Its ok, if you choose to accept that that is fine, but in my world, where I chose to be progressive we will look for solutions to simple problems instead of sticking to old dogmas which are primitive and outdated.

then what is the solution? again, after critiquing those who disagree with you as trolls you commit the same error you point an accusatory finger towards and make more statements without even offering an alternative explanation let alone supporting your version of how things happened.

As far as Leedskalin goes, can you cite a single scientist or engineer who has studied the Coral Castle and concluded it could not have been built in the manner described by various debunkers? Because he did all the work at night, it can't even be proven that he built it by himself. Nobody has ever said it was built with "modern" as in post 1920 tools. What there are however, is numerous photos of Ed using a block and tackle apparatus, heavy chains and a tripod. Interestingly, this method of moving extremely heavy objects was pioneered in Latvia, where Ed was from. Take a look at photos of the blocks used in the Coral Castle and then try to tell me there aren't wedge marks in the stones, because they are plain as day for anyone actually interested in the truth. Since you believe that naysayers are having difficulty with high school physics perhaps taking a read through this gentleman's website where he discusses moving very heavy objects using basic principles of Physics-

www.theforgottentechnology.com...

At the end it will try to get you to buy a DVD explaining in more detail but engage in some due diligence and do the research. If you're as open minded as you try to present yourself as, the information is out there.

Some more evidence to look over for those interested in keeping on topic with the OP of the thread which seems so difficlt for some.

You are right, I am not citing my work or evidence, I have already stated why this is, but to spell it out again, it is because I am writing a book or more specifically three book's on the matter. In good time however, this will become apparent with full citation and links. In fact I may even send you a copy free of charge.
Now suppose I was to post up all my citations and my books progress so far for instance? What if someone stole my work?

This thread seemed to go astray from the OP...the only thing I can add is a discussion about our fossil record. All of the different Eras have distinctly different fossils from one another. Namely because of the type of life on Earth for each Era.

Now the only thing I can think of, is it possible that we have the fossil record completely wrong and we are missing an Era? The dates of all the other Eras are off? Or an Era is covered up by the Government?

If the Fossil Record is 110% accurate then it will be much harder to discover this mystery civilization.

Or...what if a small population of advanced lifeforms evolved and only used biological technology, and were intelligent enough to know the planet would experience an ELE and left the planet into Space.

originally posted by: Judgie
Ed Leedskalnin used a chain and pully? Hrmmm... The level of understanding of even high school physics dumb founds me with some people. Its ok, if you choose to accept that that is fine, but in my world, where I chose to be progressive we will look for solutions to simple problems instead of sticking to old dogmas which are primitive and outdated.

My theory is based on an actual visit to the Coral Castle,listening to the the stories the guides tell and what I observed with my own eyes.Ed did all his building work at night just to add to the mystique.He was a showman as much as he was very talented at problem solving in the same way the ancient Egyptians were when they built the great pyramids.

Digging out the slabs for the walls with a leaf spring from an old truck would certainly be a LOT of hard work,but not impossible.......

originally posted by: game over man
This thread seemed to go astray from the OP...the only thing I can add is a discussion about our fossil record. All of the different Eras have distinctly different fossils from one another. Namely because of the type of life on Earth for each Era.



Now the only thing I can think of, is it possible that we have the fossil record completely wrong and we are missing an Era? The dates of all the other Eras are off? Or an Era is covered up by the Government?



If the Fossil Record is 110% accurate then it will be much harder to discover this mystery civilization.



Or...what if a small population of advanced lifeforms evolved and only used biological technology, and were intelligent enough to know the planet would experience an ELE and left the planet into Space.

The skeptics jump all over any free thought whenever it should ever arise. I consider them to be the hall moniters of free thought, or any alternative history that doesnt go along with what your taught in school. Nope there are no pyramids globally, umm those are um ah just tombs that dont happen to ever have had bodies in them lolz. . . .

originally posted by: Judgie
You guys (trolls) have not proposed any evidence at all to the contrary, all you are trying to achieve is ridicule which is a shame, because at the end of the day you are educated people I at least hope, made of flesh and blood like the rest of us, with families and loved ones that could enjoy to no end the splendors that will systematically be exposed in time. And they will be exposed in time.

How did they date this diorite? oh wait they do not have the most fathomable clue, they just think because they found it near some site with skeletal remains present it must have been them. If I owned the Mona Lisa, doesn't mean I painted it, I hope this analogy doesn't go too far over your head.

If you owned the Mona Lisa, it means the Mona Lisa was painted at some point in time before your death.

originally posted by: Judgie
You try to talk of what is possible without even having the slightest education in construction or engineering. I have that, I know we cannot, not unless we spent many years even shaping a singular block in a wall. Laser beams? No, all matter is made up of energy at a sub atomic level, what creates energy? well this is simple it is waves, sound, resonances. We can use sound frequencies to cut, in fact the whole system of sacred geometry is based off of resonance patterns. Unfortunately we choose not to even explore this technology. Why oh wait I have already addressed this issue. Money.

I am a former Mechanical Engineer (20 years) now teaching Math and Physics to High Schoolers.

We are not all as ignorant as you.

When you come on this site spouting nonsense, you can expect to be questioned and confronted about it.

originally posted by: Judgie
Ed Leedskalnin used a chain and pully? Hrmmm... The level of understanding of even high school physics dumb founds me with some people. Its ok, if you choose to accept that that is fine, but in my world, where I chose to be progressive we will look for solutions to simple problems instead of sticking to old dogmas which are primitive and outdated.

You forgot to mention Ed's electric winch.

Harte

How did they build those monolithic temples in India such as the Pantha Rathas, the Ajanta caves and such?

a reply to: Judgie

Hi, Pancha Rathas is a beautiful complex and it's not somewhere I know a great deal about.



You don't need to go as far back as before the ice age for an answer though. This was built around the 7th century, and if you have a look around at contemporaneous structures you get a different picture of that era.

The Basilica of San Vitale, Italy, 6th c AD.


The Hagia Sophia, Turkey, 6th c AD


Humans have been very good at building for a very long time. We have a calendar in the north east of Scotland that dates from around 10,000 years ago.

This might interest you though:

DNA evidence proves that early humans survived the last ice age

Scientists analysing the genetic makeup of the fossilised bones of a man who lived about 37,000 years ago in what is now western Russia found that his DNA is similar to modern-day Europeans suggesting they have a longer, continuous history than previously supposed.
The fossilised shinbone was found at a Stone Age site near the village of Kostenki on the River Don, and the successful extraction and sequencing of the man’s DNA means it is now the second oldest complete genome for anatomically modern humans, Homo sapiens.

That is fascinating in itself, and I would love to hear about a 40,000 year old temple found somewhere. But so far...nothing.
What we don't have evidence for, is any of their advanced technology etc. It doesn't mean we should stop looking, but we can't say that it existed yet.

a reply to: Judgie

I am afraid that it is highly unlikely. Why? Beacause what you are assuming is not if there had been a certain hybrid individuals, instead you are assuming mass existence of a civilization. If your assumption was right, how could we have not find any hard evidence. We have even found numerous dinosaur fossils living in much elder ages than the ice age. Second, human race suvived the ice age and I don't see the reason why advanced civilization could not make it.

a reply to: Paperjacket

You have some valid points, however there is a lot of mystery left unsolved. Let me digress.

First off, was there a hybrid of individuals? Though I never assumed there was, now you point it out, there is a world wide distribution of elongated skulls recorded again and again. Is this mere coincidence? Why do all these cultures around the world lengthen their skulls? Did they all just chose to do that in complete isolation from one another? Possibly but I find that bizarre if they did.

Hard evidence for a lost civilization? How about megalithic structures that scatter the globe even in the most unlikely of places. This is getting hard to ignore, I have an atlas at home in which every new structure I hear about through my research, I plot in this Atlas with a X if there is any doubt it is man made, I mark it with a ?. They are everywhere and in huge abundance, just because most people haven't the time to do this, or to look, doesn't mean they are not there.

Dinosaur fossils are much older and you bring up a good point, Assuming there was a great deluge, one would think human remains would be much more prevalent. However, there does seem to be a world wide cover up of our past, I can show you a few articles on this conspiracy if you wish. Also, most skeletal remains break up only in decades, in wet conditions due to acidic erosion. However in dry conditions with limited humidity they can last forever. If there was a great flood, wouldn't this create a lot of the wet conditions?
Also remember, lack of "evidence" doesn't elude the fact it could "possibly" be there. As much as the skeptics seem to be trying, I could be wrong, they are trying to stop or cease the free enquiry of this possibility especially at an academic level. Why stick to dogmatic assumptions?

I never said human race didn't survive the ice age, in fact that is my very hypothesis, that there was a previous civilization of humans, living before such times who were almost eradicated. Though some did in fact survive, which re-kindled the civilization we have now. What evidence do I have to support this conclusion?
Lets consider the ethnic distribution of people around the world. We have Caucasian people in Europe and spreading down to the middle east, Negro people in Africa, with similar people in Australia and Papua regions, Asian or mongoloid people in Asia and the Americas. Then why do we find some interesting examples around the world of prehistoric distribution of peoples that shouldn't be where they are found?

1. The giant heads of the Olmec people, are distinctively African or Negros people.
2. Though only myth now, North and South America, Polynesia, Australia and a lot of Asia seem to keep on finding strange distributions of caucasian remains, with associated myth and legends. Some of which are quite well depicted in carvings as bearded people.
3. Very old accounts of expeditions to Madagascar describe the people as tall, with straight long black hair and a reddish hue to the skin. To me, this suggests the American Mongoloid people, but what on earth would they be doing all the way in Madagascar? Its a long way away from the Americas.

Now lets consider what would happen to our own civilization we have currently if something huge and dramatic was to happen like the such again, what would we leave behind after 10,000 years?
Well assuming everything was flattened to almost entirety this is like an actual huge disaster and flooding of the world. How well would you survive with the supermarket gone? I myself have extensive military and outdoor training, spending 6 years of my life as a combat medic. Even I must admit we have grown to accustomed to urban life that most of us would not survive the climatic conditions and illnesses that would plague us without hospitals and medicines. Some will however, but the best off of us would probably be those who live without these anyway, like the tribes that still exist in remote regions anyway.
Our books would all be lost, our computer systems and god bless the internet would be gone and thus most of our records. All timbers would decay by then maybe leaving some traces of fossilization, leaving only our concrete which would erode also due to acidic erosion maybe not entirely, glass which would be shattered and possibly some of our steel or metal frames behind though these too would decay, Maybe they would dig down and find some weird crashed aluminum cans and window surrounds that were bent to no avail and barely recognizable in human form. Maybe some of our plastics will remain? But also equally these things could be buried deep underground or even under the ocean. Of which you cannot tell me we have explored enough to rule this out.
Would the future civilization find extracted ores and quarries in unusual circumstances? Yes they probably would, but we have many accounts of weird oddities of us finding this too. So why rule it out entirely?

Maybe I shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it must be the case or maybe I know something that most people don't? It doesn't matter how it is addressed it needs academic recognition that there is a distinct possibility that this could be the case which is not happening to the best of my knowledge. If there is a serious academic investigation of this, I would like to be part of it.

draw a red bar 14 billion years of the planet's and top blue out 6000 years and compare

originally posted by: Judgie
a reply to: Paperjacket

... there is a lot of mystery left unsolved....
Maybe I shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it must be the case or maybe I know something that most people don't? It doesn't matter how it is addressed it needs academic recognition that there is a distinct possibility that this could be the case which is not happening to the best of my knowledge. If there is a serious academic investigation of this, I would like to be part of it.

Let me introduce you to The Hall of Ma'at. It will address many of the questions that you have. Also, let JSTOR become your friend...available at most libraries. May I point out that, despite all the accusations of academic constipation, there are scads of fresh-faced young PhD candidates world-wide that are just slavering to make their mark by changing what we think we know. If you look at how the concept of the peopling of the Americas has changed over the last 20 years...you'll see.

And if you want to take part in a serious investigation of such things, the first thing you need to do is cast a critical eye over the apparent anomalies that exist. Secondly, you have to discard Hancock, as most of what he says is outright bunk. Honest...not trying to be a buzzkill, just trying to save you from spinning your wheels.

Thank you for pointing me to that site, tho I am very skeptical of the peer review process. We value money and reputation too much and are too politically correct now to challenge some established views. The process obviously is scrutinized by those who understand the importance of these ideals and thus we cannot really know how many ideas have been stopped for the sake of competing recognition, due to lack or loss of funding or other political issues.

You say Graham Hancock is a load of bunk, could you please do me a favor and show me some sort of Graham Hancock debunking site or something of the kind because I cannot seem to find a whole much on it and trust me, I am trying my best to play devils advocate to myself though the concept is growing harder and harder now.
I am trying to debate my own theory but evidently again and again I cannot find anything that seriously contradicts it. There is speculative contradiction but in essence its mostly a bunch of personal attacks. If a guy happens to be mentally ill or on drugs for instance, that doesn't mean automatically what he has said is wrong. It means someone is trying to divert attention away from what they are saying, for which purpose we can only speculate.

I will definitely look through that site you posted though, ignorance even against your own idea is not bliss. Both sides of the argument need to be weighed up seriously with all possibilities open approached and then systematically deduced. This is, in essence the exact process I am taking.
Though having a devils advocate would be a great help to me, as well as other researchers and some funding. But if there is a will there is a way ;-)

originally posted by: Judgie

You say Graham Hancock is a load of bunk, could you please do me a favor and show me some sort of Graham Hancock debunking site or something of the kind because I cannot seem to find a whole much on it and trust me, I am trying my best to play devils advocate to myself though the concept is growing harder and harder now.

First example - Hancock, in "Fingerprints of the Gods" parroted the line from Erik VonDaniken concerning the tomb of Pacal in Tikal - you know, the "astronaut in a space capsule" Mayan artwork on the cover of his sarcophagus.

While I'm certain VonDaniken simply fabricated the whole thing, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt because of his ignorance and because of the fact that, when EVD wrote about it in "Chariots of the Gods?" the Mayan hieroglyphic script had yet to be translated.

However, when Hancock told basically the same story years later in his book (which, as you might now see, was just a ripoff of earlier writers' ignorant ideas,) he parroted the same story virtually identical to EVD.

Problem is, the glyphs HAD been translated by then, and the tomb is filled with glyphs explaining exactly what the sarcophagus cover represents - Pacal falling through (or climbing up) the Mayan tree of life.

The tree of life iconography is quite well known in Mayan artwork. When EVD sold his lies, it was known that the representation was Pacal in the tree of life. But like I said, I give him some slack because of the language problem.

Hancock faced no such problem. A half hour of looking into this by Hancock or by his editor would have resulted in that part of the book being edited out.

Apparently, neither Hancock nor his editor(s) cared about the truth, as that part is still in the book - even the latest edition. In that latest edition, Hancock, in a forward, basically admitted he'd done little or no research at all for the book!

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
First example - Hancock, in "Fingerprints of the Gods" parroted the line from Erik VonDaniken concerning the tomb of Pacal in Tikal - you know, the "astronaut in a space capsule" Mayan artwork on the cover of his sarcophagus.

I do believe that it was in the same book, he was pumping the 'we don't know how the stones of the pyramids were constructed with such precision' routine. I spoke to an ME archaeologist about this, and he patiently explained that he had seen the tools used, resting in situ, where they had been discarded by the workers. That's when I came to the realisation that somebody was fibbing, and it likely weren't the prof. He wasn't selling books.

Why not look into getting out on some actual digs and interacting with the real deal. As a colleague recently observed, "It's more fun to dig # up than to look # up!"

a reply to: Harte

I hate to say this and you might be right but it seems like I come on here just to argue sometimes.
What if we have translated it wrong, how are we to know? Myth legends and artwork can be interpreted in many ways. I could be wrong on this, I just simply don't know.

The rest of what you said though, points out one of very few "speculative" errors he has made. He makes more cases than this, many, many, more.
Its like when I write on this forum, I make a lot of grammar and spelling mistakes at time, doesn't mean my message is getting lost. Some people don't like that, if they don't, they don't have to read it.

Its a very common tactic to exploit one mistake and turn it into a storm. Most people will fixate on this, I am not discredited so quickly. I have a very profound understanding of what I guess most people would consider psychological warfare. It doesn't mean that point you bring up is wrong tho, it may well be.
I shall research further myself possibly even today.

originally posted by: Judgie
a reply to: Harte

I hate to say this and you might be right but it seems like I come on here just to argue sometimes.
What if we have translated it wrong, how are we to know? Myth legends and artwork can be interpreted in many ways. I could be wrong on this, I just simply don't know.

The rest of what you said though, points out one of very few "speculative" errors he has made. He makes more cases than this, many, many, more.
Its like when I write on this forum, I make a lot of grammar and spelling mistakes at time, doesn't mean my message is getting lost. Some people don't like that, if they don't, they don't have to read it.

Its a very common tactic to exploit one mistake and turn it into a storm. Most people will fixate on this, I am not discredited so quickly. I have a very profound understanding of what I guess most people would consider psychological warfare. It doesn't mean that point you bring up is wrong tho, it may well be.
I shall research further myself possibly even today.

I posted only one because I was at work.

I can't spend much time here at home either because of my autistic son, who believes he owns all the technology in the house.

However, I did say "first example," right?

You are aware of his stillborn "ancient" city in the Gulf of "Cambay" assertion, I presume? link

You'll forgive me this time for not going into that mess in this thread. My kid is pulling me off as I type this.

Harte

as in my siggy thread re "the working celtic cross": the use of which has been tracked back to before the last Ice age:
proofs in there at the links included

sometimes its better to figure things out then dig them up

ETA
and more to come too