17 yo girl killed by police--Now threats by Anonymous?

a reply to: midicon

Why must you keep arguing against facts? The girl was assaulting the police officer with, at the very least, kicks to his body. That goes beyond resisting arrest, and qualifies as second-degree assault against a police officer in the performance of his duties in the state of Colorado...unless she would be found to be not in control of her mental faculties, rendering the "knowingly" part of the specifications unmet. But we don't know that...that's pure what-if speculation.

I promise I'm not talking out of my arse, here--I have nearly a decade working in the legal field, four of which was as a paralegal. I understand how to read the law and compare it to a video.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: midicon

Why must you keep arguing against facts? The girl was assaulting the police officer with, at the very least, kicks to his body. That goes beyond resisting arrest, and qualifies as second-degree assault against a police officer in the performance of his duties in the state of Colorado...unless she would be found to be not in control of her mental faculties, rendering the "knowingly" part of the specifications unmet. But we don't know that...that's pure what-if speculation.

I promise I'm not talking out of my arse, here--I have nearly a decade working in the legal field, four of which was as a paralegal. I understand how to read the law and compare it to a video.

Even if she sat on his face and farted while kicking him in the nuts....
Does that justify taking her life?

And yes we dont know all the facts, SHE IS DEAD, we will never know the facts now.

Doesnt take any years of legalese experience to understand that.

I wonder, what is your legal take on the officer involved with murdering that black 7 yr old girl, what with no further action being taken.
Is it any wonder why the US like to shoot first and fail to ask questions later because the person IS DEAD?
They always get off.

a reply to: OneManArmy

Share a link to the story to which you're referring and I'll gladly opine objectively. I don't expect that you have, but if you knew every time I commented in this forum, you'd realize that I'm not always on the side of the cop, I'm on the side of laws, procedure, and evidence. I'll be the first to wait for more evidence, but also to tell someone they're full of crap when they comment fueled only by emotion and hyperbole.

And if you're seriously equating this scenario on video in the police station as "shoot first," you must be seeing a different video than the one that actually captured the event.

Now, I don't disagree that LEOs too often are let off way too lightly--they should be held at a higher standard of conduct, not a lower one--but that in no way means that every time something like this happens, that the LEO is a murderer and too quick to act with deadly force.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

Charges for what? He did nothing illegal. He may have effed up proper procedure, and probably could use some administrative punishment, but defending your life with deadly force is an appropriate response.

Why wouldn't giving up control of an armed individual you had subdued which in turn leads to the death of said individual not qualify as gross negligence? When is law allowed to intervene over procedure violations?

It just pisses me off that police can kill whoever they want and all we can ever get is "they effed up procedure" and/or "administrative punishment". And then people try to argue that there isn't separate tiers of justice.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

sorry, he was charged, but found innocent. Case no different than this except the officer shouldnt have let her up. i want an answer for that.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

This is why I question if you learned anything about handling situations like this during your military service. You sound like someone who has had zero training.

You know, anyone can talk big on the internet, anyone can write about their great skills, training and capabilities since it is quite easy to profess with a keyboard that they are a bad-ass, and I must say you are right up their with the other keyboard bad-asses...

The biggest difference between fighting in a few wars, boxing, MMA over being a cop, learning martial arts in a dojo type gym is the that the first group has overcome and gained control of their fight or flight auto response. At lease when I played around for a little over a year in Korea, in a real Dojang learning Kuk Sool Won, we at least went 80% or more almost daily.

These cops are only train to control the situation and since they typically never get into a real situation that triggers fight or flight they loose it once that total control is lost and the auto-condition kicks in. After that it is guns a blazing...

a reply to: FraggleRock

I get your anger, but there is negligence, and then there is criminal negligence--and we don't even know for sure that he was negligent (although I can't imagine not cuffing someone resisting arrest and assaulting you not being against procedure, but it could be up to the discretion of the officer?).

The thing is, it wasn't his lack of cuffing her that led to her death, it was her actions after standing up (after, I assume, being told to stay on the ground...but I have no proof) and rushing an officer in a threatening manner (possibly with a knife/weapon in her hand) with his gun trained on her. Just because an officer doesn't put someone in handcuffs doesn't excuse that person's actions from that point on.

I'm with you on the irritation of a lack of appropriate action against officers who do wrong, but like I've said all along, we don't have the department's procedures in front of us, and we have no audio (that I've found, yet) that gives us a more complete picture as to what went on in that waiting room.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

technically--and this is admittedly splitting hairs, but a point worth making--no one is found "innocent" in our legal system. We are innocent until proven guilty, and he was not proven guilty, so the finding would be "not guilty."

But I agree that I want a more complete picture in this instance--I want audio, at the least.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: SlapMonkey

sorry, he was charged, but found innocent. Case no different than this except the officer shouldnt have let her up. i want an answer for that.

I agree with you that the actions were strange to say the least. they scuffled, he had her down, and should have cuffed her, but for some reason, didn't or was unable to.

But, she got up really fast and came at the officer (was already close, but came right at him) with a knife ready to stab. In that situation, you have milisenconds to make a decision. None of the previous actions matter at that point. Shoot her, or be stabbed and hope she didn't stab you too deep, or in the wrong place. Perhaps you handle knife wounds better than most, I tend to bleed a bit and rather dislike doing so.

But aside from ALL that, she went to the police station looking for an officer to end her life. If that isn't a reasonable statement, please explain the reason she would write "I have a gun", and show it to the cop, then reach for 'something'. I feel sad for her and wish like hell this didn't happen. I feel sure the cops involved feel the same way. While they may want to "kill a thug", I doubt any of them wished to kill a cute little 17 year old girl.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
You know, anyone can talk big on the internet, anyone can write about their great skills, training and capabilities since it is quite easy to profess with a keyboard that they are a bad-ass, and I must say you are right up their with the other keyboard bad-asses...

LOL...when have I ever claimed I'm a badass? All I've ever said is that I'm in training and have been through other training that gives me appropriate insight as to what is a proper/legal self-defense act in situations like this and what is not. As for me being a "bad ass," I'd be the first to say that this is most likely not the case when compared to others with similar training, but at higher levels. But compared to the average Joe on the street, or even the average LEO who only trains intermittently (at best), yeah, I'd be able to hold my own without issue.

The biggest difference between fighting in a few wars, boxing, MMA over being a cop, learning martial arts in a dojo type gym is the that the first group has overcome and gained control of their fight or flight auto response. At lease when I played around for a little over a year in Korea, in a real Dojang learning Kuk Sool Won, we at least went 80% or more almost daily.

That sounds enjoyable, actually. While we don't do much high-percentage sparring during my classes, I do attend the "open-mat Fridays" in my gym when the trainers are there and we can do a little more real-world speed and power. We may not go at 80%, but like I said, that's because I'm no bad ass in my opinion, yet, and I'm more interested in building good habits with form and power and technique--faster speed will come in due time.

This is a good list of what I would agree are highly practical self defense fighting systems. My gym instructs three of these, but I'm only focused on the Krav Maga in there right now. As time allows, I'll be adding in combative jiujitsu and eskrima--the jiujitsu comes in at level 4 Krav anyhow, so I need to learn some before then, right?

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ETA: I would never condone just buying DVDs and books to learn a fighting system, like the dude at that link says. There is no substitute for hands-on learning and sparring.
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These cops are only train to control the situation and since they typically never get into a real situation that triggers fight or flight they loose it once that total control is lost and the auto-condition kicks in. After that it is guns a blazing...

I can't argue at all with this, except that they are armed with live firearms for a reason, and if they get into that situation where someone is coming for them in a deadly way (like running with a weapon raised above their head in a stabbing motion), a firearm is the most practical means of self defense. While it wouldn't be my immediate go-to (and it wasn't this officer's, either), it's there for when there's that split-second where it's either your life or theirs. With me, if possible, it will not be mine every time. I would never want to have to live with the reality of taking another's life, but you bet your arse I would if it meant me going home to my family for another night.

a reply to: Tusks

I just find that crazy and unforgivable on the officer's faults.She was only 17...they did not need to shoot her...like real_one said...Why couldn't they just taste her?

originally posted by: Trans4mers434
a reply to: Tusks

I just find that crazy and unforgivable on the officer's faults.She was only 17...they did not need to shoot her...like real_one said...Why couldn't they just taste her?

Like lots of others have said, why can't you watch the video, THEN comment.
They did tase her, it didn't work. She got up and rushed at the officer with the butcher knife above her head in a threatening manner. If he didn't shoot her, he would have been stabbed. That part isn't up for discussion.

Also, she was 17, tried to kill herself twice before, and entered the police station with a butcher knife and a note written on her hand saying "I have a gun". So she was looking for something to happen. Context is an important part of any story.

ETA, I am sure you meant tase or taze and not "taste".

a reply to: SlapMonkey

I guess my point in all this is when I look at the situation I can typically analyze the threat really quick due to my experience. In this case with this freaked out small girl I would not view as much of a threat, much of a threat to use deadly force. This doesn't mean she would not get hurt in overcoming her, just not dead.

In her crazed state could she have gotten a lucky hit in with the knife, sure. Would have I used my forearm to take that hit, sure if need be. I'm also 6'6" 280 pounds and most cops I see are well under-equipped physically, even for a small crazed girl, and that is a shame.

Your small girl, highly trained, would give herself away with her stance and non-crazed focus, and that would quickly have me analyze things a different way. The fact that the cops had it under control and then lost it to only have the choice of lethal force is a down right failure on a monumental proportions level.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Your small girl, highly trained, would give herself away with her stance and non-crazed focus, and that would quickly have me analyze things a different way.

i would think only a small percentage of people would pick up on a detail like that...hence why it is difficult for them to understand where you are coming from

one thing is clear from all this the training police need should be improved a lot,especially with the population growing the way it is there are only going to be more crazy people out there to deal with

originally posted by: Tusks
a reply to: Taupin Desciple

Perhaps. Or a teenage girl doing some dramatic acting-out.
Whichever--the cops who killed her are gonna have to live with that for the rest of their lives. If any of them have a conscience, it will likely weigh heavily upon them many times.

I wouldn't put a dime on this as a bet. Many of today's thugs with badges are low-IQ steroid brutes who are trained to be predators and to shoot before thinking... when they haven't just worked as guards/torturers in Afgan NATO prisons.

originally posted by: network dude


ETA, I am sure you meant tase or taze and not "taste".

Lol, has anyone ever tried licking a criminal to see if it works?

Dont knock it till you try it.