Religion, Scripture and logical thinking

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Well to be fair, we don't see people who don't believe in leprechauns rally together in the name of non-belief in leprechauns.

Or start websites, print T-shirts, buy billboard ads, write books, have radio shows.. et cetra.

Basically, proselytize their belief that there is no God.

Still isn't a religion though, but the leprechaun example is silly.

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

Those that believe the bible as literal word of ''god'' do so on blind faith alone.

Not true. Because of verifiable predictive prophecies written in advance it shows that the origin of the information had to have come from a source outside the space time dimension.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: theabsolutetruth

Those that believe the bible as literal word of ''god'' do so on blind faith alone.

Not true. Because of verifiable predictive prophecies written in advance it shows that the origin of the information had to have come from a source outside the space time dimension.

"verifiable predictive prophecies written in advance"

That is quite a claim. Evidence?

Have you heard of any "predictive prophecies" for 2015 onwards that you would care to share ?

a reply to: Answer

The strawman argument is that you can predict what happened to cause a big bang.

Why have a theory about something so utterly pointless ??? It does nothing to address the origins of anything in that context.

It is much like the NIST report talking about how collapse MAY have initiated even though they never actually mention any calculations as to where when or how, and never mind what happened AFTER the big bang.

We will not calculate that either.

I find that all of the theories here, are specifically designed to hide from the truth.

I.E. Science is handcuffed and incomplete as much as Religion is.

I get no closer to knowing a dam thing with the help of either of them, in fact I can use myself and dig deep and get a lot closer, more profound answers, and that is something that science, religion and everything in between tells us NOT TO DO!!!

Have you considered the melting of the polar ice caps releasing enough water to flood the earth?
a reply to: shauny

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: Answer

The strawman argument is that you can predict what happened to cause a big bang.

You may want to look up the definition of straw man argument and get back to me.

The religious mind defies reason because of its logic because it can only believe through it’s Belief System religion.That's why it’s futile to convince someone of something they believe .As the old saying goes “a person convinced against their will(of belief) is unconvinced still”.

Snakes that talk that were powerful beings that became evil and fight a God is logical to those that believe it.Aliens from other planets invading the planet earth as hidden warlords.Cloak and dagger men involved in a covert conspiracy that control the will of mankind through religion and money.It’s all belief and completely logical to those that believe.The more truth mixed in with their leavened belief the more logical.

The mind of man is a prison of the inmates making.It cannot break out because it does not believe it is in prison!The door could be flung open with neon signs flashing and pointing to the outside yet it will not budge one inch away from it’s comfy couch of belief.The only way someones breaks out of a prison cell of belief is when that belief is destroyed…however…. it just leads to another cell block.

The only way to escape the prison of belief is to have the whole of the Belief System destroyed…annihilated…dead as a doornail…and the fact is none can destroy their own Belief System by belief because it goes against all their Beliefs!It’s a conundrum wrapped in a dilemma smothered in irony sauce.The Belief System is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the fruit of it is mankinds main diet.Everything a person “acts” upon is based in their Belief System ”dualism”. However dualism is not the true nature of the universe contrary to what the mind of man believes.

Man “judges” things as good or evil by “their standard based on the judgement through their Belief System religion.To play the Hitler card(without playing) Hitler didn’t have people murdered because he believed it was an evil act he believed it was good….for Hitler.Not murdering them was evil because he believed they were evil.This is the standard of the core of black and white dualism thinking logic and how mankind believes.It is natural for them.The playing field can be altered(justified) in any way they desire because it is their Belief.

Most people do not act upon extreme forms of dualism as Hitler did.However that does not make them exempt.Hitler is just the epitome of the perversion of the untruth of dualism.The true fact is “good” does not need evil for good to exist.That is only a construct of the religious carnal mind…dualism.The fact is dualism defies reason by it’s twisted logic of belief.In Belief Systems belief trumps reason(truth) and creates it’s own truth(which is a lie)…and the conundrum continues to twist and twist around it self like a snake.

Fortunately this Belief System eventually(in another age/realm) will blow itself up by it’s own petard(bomb).It is in effect it’s own worst enemy ...and best friend. Religion is the fire bomb that will kill their religion.Then the person will no longer be a prisoner imprisoned in their religious carnal mind but will be a king ruling in the kingdom of their heavens(mind)...unfortunately that involves two deaths.The physical death from living in the physical realm and entering into the realm of physical death.Then the 2nd death to their Belief System religion by being fire bombed.The first looks like a piece of cake compared to the 2nd which will defy all the logic of a persons religion.

a reply to: UmbraSumus

That is quite a claim. Evidence?

Sure

My personal favorite is Daniel prophesying the exact day Jesus would ride into Jerusalem and present Himself as the Moshiach Nagid. Or God calling King Cyrus the Great by name and detailing his reign some 150 years before he was born in Isaiah.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

From what I researched it seemed to suggest there was something similar like a smuggler's hole type entrance buddy, In all honesty I am not 100%
Fascinating, fun story to research however

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: UmbraSumus

That is quite a claim. Evidence?

Sure

My personal favorite is Daniel prophesying the exact day Jesus would ride into Jerusalem and present Himself as the Moshiach Nagid. Or God calling King Cyrus the Great by name and detailing his reign some 150 years before he was born in Isaiah.

So you're using the Bible to prove prophecies that were in the Bible?

You don't see how that's flawed?

I read the website you linked and there are more leaps of assumption than any Nostradamus interpretation I've ever seen... and that's saying a lot.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: UmbraSumus

That is quite a claim. Evidence?

Sure

My personal favorite is Daniel prophesying the exact day Jesus would ride into Jerusalem and present Himself as the Moshiach Nagid. Or God calling King Cyrus the Great by name and detailing his reign some 150 years before he was born in Isaiah.

So your favorite prophesy was written about after the fact. The NT was written long after Jesus was dead so how is that evidence?

Does anyone really need to point out the flaw in that logic?

That is like me prophesizing that on 9/11 two planes will hit the twin towers except I would just now record it.

a reply to: Grimpachi

So your favorite prophesy was written about after the fact.

He died in 32 AD. It's not hard to back up when the Feast of Passover was in 32 AD.

Let's not forget the failed prophecies.

E.g. the destruction of Tyre at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.

Or maybe that was fulfilled, but in a different way?

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Ezekiel 14:9

Wait.. God deceives people? Isn't that Satan's job?

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Grimpachi

So your favorite prophesy was written about after the fact.

He died in 32 AD. It's not hard to back up when the Feast of Passover was in 32 AD.

And everything that was written about his life was written after the fact. The Bible is not a source that can verify the Bible.

As we know the church and scribes throughout history have taken liberties with those stories. That's why even with the known copies of the NT there are over 10,000 discrepancies. It is said there are more recorded discrepancies in the NT than there are words.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Daniel is actually a book in the Old Testament, not the new. It was written around 536-530 B.C. (according to a brief search I did). If Christ was a real person his death can be placed somewhere between 30-33 AD.

Pontius Pilate is known to have ruled Judea from AD 26–36. The crucifixion took place during a Passover (Mark 14:12), and that fact, plus astronomical data (the Jewish calendar was lunar-based), narrows the field to two dates—April 7, AD 30, and April 3, AD 33. There are scholarly arguments supporting both dates; the later date (AD 33) would require Jesus to have had a longer ministry and to have begun it later. The earlier date (AD 30) would seem more in keeping with what we deduce about the start of Jesus’ ministry from Luke 3:1.

Source

As for Daniel's "Seventy Week" prophecy I don't know enough about it to say whether or not it was written in after the fact. You know my stance on these things though. I question the legitimacy for various reasons.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I know Daniel is from the OT my point is when you have stories being written about a character long after their death those writing the stories can make up whatever they want to make them fit prophesies.

I think there was a real person the Jesus character was based off of, but I do not believe the stories about him are accurate in any way. Verses have been added dates re-arranged stories completely changed to show divinity I am sure more than we will ever know.

None of the NT books were written by the people who actually knew him that by itself should say plenty.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Ah my mistake. Rereading one of your above posts I see when talking about the New Testament you were talking about the fulfillment part of the prophecy, not the book of Daniel where it was written.

I'm on the fence in regards to a historical Jesus, though agree that the stories about him from the Bible are not accurate representation of who that man may have been.

Also agree about there being too many discrepancies and such in regards to the authorship of the books in the Bible for it to be considered divine truth.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

It's cool I am a bit off formulating and writing my thoughts clearly tonight. I think I need some rest so I will be signing out soon.

originally posted by: shauny

[/align]

I don't know if this was already posted in the thread, but Biblical innerancy is mostly a modern, American, Fundamentalist invention (like young earth creationism, the refusal of evolution and other similar theories).

The idea of Biblical infallibility gained ground in Protestant churches as a fundamentalist reaction against a general modernization movement within Christianity in the 19th and early 20th centuries. In the Catholic church, the reaction produced the concept of Papal infallibility, while in the Evangelical churches the infallibility of the Bible was asserted. "Both movements represent a synthesis of a theological position and an ideological-political stance against the erosion of traditional authorities. Both are antimoderne and literalist."

Almost all the Christians I know here are aware there is symbolism in the Bible, and consider religion a personal and internal journey rather than a universal dogma. Also they see no contradiction between religion and science, since the purpose of religion is mostly morality and things spiritual while science is focused on the material.

Many great scientists were also Christians, priests and monks, and had zero problems reconciling their faith with science (since the Christian faith isn't fundamentalist initially).



Even Church father St Augustine (4th century) spoke of the symbolism of the Bible.



Just so you know that when discussing whether the scriptures are infallible or not, a great deal of Christians actually think the Scriptures are a testimony from people living around the Mediterranean sea, from 2000 years ago and before, centered around the history of the Jewish people and the teachings of one of them who would become known as the Messiah by its followers who would call themselves Christians.

It's a book. With a context. With a specific audience. With a specific history. And that book contains spiritual teachings as well as the mythos of the Jewish people.


If some Fundamentalists Christians in the US think the Bible is the infallible word of God, it's their choice, and that belief isn't in line with the teachings of the great and ancient Churches of the world (Caholic, Orthodox).

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Not really.

Those ''prophecies'' are subjective and also could have been created deliberately as an attempt at proof.

If you actually read the bible you will see it is full of contradictions and clearly written and controlled by men. Men that were leaders of vast populations that had the means for controlling the minds of the people they ruled over. Men are not divine beings from outer space time dimensions.