Religion, Scripture and logical thinking

Atheism is not a position of faith because atheists simply say "I do not believe in this because there is no evidence to suggest its existence."

If your argument is "well you can't prove that god doesn't exist" and you try to apply this to Atheism, you must apply the same principle to all things: fairies, dragons, unicorns, etc.

Furthermore, one could also apply the same logic to all other religions. You can not prove that any religion is incorrect so why do you discount Greek and Roman Mythology, Zoroastrianism, sun worship, etc? You can not prove that Zeus is not currently ruling over Earth from Mt. Olympus, yet you choose to believe in a different god. All of the ancient religions were the predominant system of belief for millions of people who had just as much faith as any religious person living today. The biggest difference is that their world was full of mystery because so much was unknown to science. Religious people living today have an abundance of scientific evidence explaining the wondrous natural processes of the earth but they choose to ignore much of that evidence to cling to an antiquated system of faith.

Modern religious followers are like children who continue to believe in Santa Claus after they've been told how the presents really end up under the tree. Most of the origin stories in The Holy Bible have been explained by science but the real evidence is ignored in favor of fairy tales. The Old Testament depicts a horrible, selfish, sadistic, violent god with a lot of insane rules. What sort of all-knowing, all-loving being would have such humanistic emotional tendencies? The Old Testament god makes Hitler look like a teddy bear. Magically, in the New Testament, god changed his behavior to be more suitable to the masses... almost sounds like good marketing, doesn't it?

The reason some Atheists appear as "god-haters" to Christians is because many Atheists have a problem with the influence of the religious right on scientific research/learning, education, women's rights, equality, the legal system, etc. Atheists do not hate a god they don't believe in. Atheists hate when religious people try to force others to live according to their antiquated beliefs.

Before it's stated, I'm perfectly aware that not all religious people behave any certain way and not all Atheists behave a certain way. I'm simply addressing the issue.

If atheism is a religion or faith does that mean Christians have at least two faiths/religions?


One religion faith that the Christian deity exists and several other faiths/religions that the deities of other religions don't exist.

That makes it a bit complicated don't you think?

Of course, this topic has been here for years and years. Religion is based on faith, science on testable facts. Evolution is not hard science, with testable facts. Hard science proves that the Earth is very young. Carbon dating diamonds shows that they are approximately 7000 years old. Fossils are carbon dated no older than 50,000 years, and probably at 5,000 considering the variation of carbon 14 possible in the past.
Past 100 million years ago, Mercury would be inside the diameter of the Sun.
A solar accretion dust disk cannot explain how Neptune and Uranus were formed in such a short life of this solar system.
Fossilized tracks of wagon carts date at 100 million years ago in central Turkey.
A man-made bell was found in 500 million year old granite in Massachusetts.
The list of OOPARTS is long. Scientists gladly sweep them aside, so you don't have any reason to doubt science. It is controlling what you are allowed to see.
Construction of folding proteins to form life, along with the possibility of making a living cell, is so impossible that the scientists have to postulate that there is a multiverse.
And, therefore, since the scientists have put forth solutions that are completely and utterly untestable, the theory of an older universe is taken on faith. Therefore, belief in that constitutes making it a religion.
So, you can choose your religion: Jesus Christ, or theoretical science. Which one brings eternal life? Which one rose from the dead and died for you?
Just sayin.

Ok this thread needs to be about science vs the bible not all other religions, because all religions dont say what the bible says.

As to science being logical, look at our modern world, it lacks any kind of logic at all.

We have weapons to destroy the world 1000 times over but refuse to feed the hungry and aid those in need, it defies all logic.

The materialistic nature of our society defies logic, which is science based.

originally posted by: Jim Scott
Of course, this topic has been here for years and years. Religion is based on faith, science on testable facts. Evolution is not hard science, with testable facts. Hard science proves that the Earth is very young. Carbon dating diamonds shows that they are approximately 7000 years old. Fossils are carbon dated no older than 50,000 years, and probably at 5,000 considering the variation of carbon 14 possible in the past.
Past 100 million years ago, Mercury would be inside the diameter of the Sun.
A solar accretion dust disk cannot explain how Neptune and Uranus were formed in such a short life of this solar system.
Fossilized tracks of wagon carts date at 100 million years ago in central Turkey.
A man-made bell was found in 500 million year old granite in Massachusetts.
The list of OOPARTS is long. Scientists gladly sweep them aside, so you don't have any reason to doubt science. It is controlling what you are allowed to see.
Construction of folding proteins to form life, along with the possibility of making a living cell, is so impossible that the scientists have to postulate that there is a multiverse.
And, therefore, since the scientists have put forth solutions that are completely and utterly untestable, the theory of an older universe is taken on faith. Therefore, belief in that constitutes making it a religion.
So, you can choose your religion: Jesus Christ, or theoretical science. Which one brings eternal life? Which one rose from the dead and died for you?
Just sayin.

You discredit science because of a few anomalies (most of those cases you pointed out are easily explained and were probably sourced from a creationist website), yet you choose to align with a belief system that A) hasn't a single shred of evidence suggesting it's legitimate and B) is so full of holes, it's not even a good piece of fiction.

The only evidence for Christianity is a two-part book that has been manipulated countless times throughout history to fit the agenda of the man or men doing the manipulating. How do you reconcile that?

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Ok this thread needs to be about science vs the bible not all other religions, because all religions dont say what the bible says.

As to science being logical, look at our modern world, it lacks any kind of logic at all.

We have weapons to destroy the world 1000 times over but refuse to feed the hungry and aid those in need, it defies all logic.

The materialistic nature of our society defies logic, which is science based.

The illogical behavior of man has nothing to do with the legitimacy of scientific evidence. Your argument is invalid.

As the Word says: My people will perish for a lack of knowledge.

And it is true, it's because they choose to. To gain spiritual knowledge and not that of the flesh. Yet, we choose to be of the world. To reject The Holy Spirit is pure blasphemy. The only unforgivable sin.

I am in the space where I don't debate with atheists. My words means nothing to him, and vice versa. I just pray for them as I should.

Everyone will get convicted at a stage in their life (that inner voice/God monitor) and to ignore or reject The Spirit is not a wise move.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Because atheists can definitively say there is no God with all the same fervor and faith that the faithful can say there is one, and yet, despite their protestations that they base all this on science and logic etc., they have no more concrete proof of this lack of God than we have proof of His existence.

It is pure faith alone that drives their certainty.

faith - a confident belief in the truth, value or trustworthiness of a person, idea or thing; belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

As you can see, the contentions that atheists have fit both the first two definitions of faith as my dictionary defines it. The same could be said of the religious.

What would you call an agnostic then?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

No problem buddy.

Many people believe there is alien life out in the universe. With no actual proof. Some of those same people are atheists because they say there is no proof of God. Do you find it interesting they can believe in one thing with no proof but not the other?

a reply to: jjkenobi

There are sane, mathematical models that predict that alien life almost assuredly exists in the cosmos. No such models exist for god. So it really isn't comparable. Alien life is just making an assumption that the rules on earth for life to arrive probably apply elsewhere (or may even be looser) then using statistical analysis to make a very good educated guess.

That being said, you are also correct in the lacking evidence part for alien existence. So that must always be taken into consideration as well. So we cannot say definitively that they exist, but we can have a pretty good idea that they do through deductive logic. In fact, using further deductive logic, we can say that it is MORE illogical that life DOESN'T exist in the cosmos given what we know about statistics.

a reply to: ketsuko

No.

Atheism is an acceptance of a lack of proof or scientific/logical evidence that some supernatural, invisible god governs everything in the universe. It has nothing to do with faith, and if proof ever came a long, the majority of atheists would accept that reality. They wouldn't continue their LACK of belief in the face of true evidence.

To claim that "it is pure faith alone that drives their certainty" is to be willfully ignorant in order to fit the bill of an ideologically held view of atheists. It doesn't meld with reality at all.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Religion and logical thinking are not anathema. It takes a certain mindset to find comfort in both simultaneously, and it's not particularly hard to achieve.

I personally have a problem with people who pray to their dear and fluffy lord, expecting to receive strength of will, a saved loved one or even lottery numbers. The god I can believe in doesn't concern himself with such petty things. We are born with all of the tools we will ever have to survive (or die) and that's that. If god is out there listening to our prayers, he's not making decisions about which baseball team prayed harder - if notes are being taken at all, it's about who's being more selfish.

The bible is a sad thing. Who knows what things might have been revealed in its pages had it not been modified to be a political tool. The ten commandments, however, are words to live by - religion or no.

The god I can believe in is more like a scientist in a lab coat sitting behind a microscope watching his experiment. After all, that's what we are according to the bible - an experiment on freewill.

On that note, I think Neal Peart got it right when he wrote:
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill.

a reply to: stutteringp0et

Half the Ten Commandments are about obeying and worshiping god unquestioningly. Sure the ones about adultery, murder and stealing are great, but do you think the first commandment is necessary (worship only the one god)?

Ten Commandments
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
10. Thou shalt not covet

We can pretty much strike commandments 1-4 off the list since they are unimportant, and then it would a much better list.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

No, that isn't the definition of faith at all.

Faith is believing something because it rings true inside of yourself for whatever reason. You can have faith in something that seems totally illogical. You can't have faith in something logical--because then you don't have faith you're just believing whatever logic you see. Faith is about what you can't see or prove. If that makes sense.

Faith is often believing what is AGAINST popular opinion, actually. Faith doesn't require logic and logic doesn't require faith. They're apples and oranges.

And science doesn't solve anything at all--it only opens up more questions. How come die-hard atheists that go into quantum physics come out believers in a higher power? I guess they saw some proof--logical proof versus faith. The proof is there. But if you don't want to believe it no amount of evidence will convince you.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

We can pretty much strike commandments 1-4 off the list since they are unimportant, and then it would a much better list.

Maybe a different interpretation is in order

1. pick a god, any god (unlike the greeks, who worshipped many gods - blaming/crediting them for everything)
2. don't worship idols (I'd put celebrities in this category...but that's just me)
3. it makes you sound childish, and nobody likes to hear it anyway
4. everyone deserves a day off

There's no reason to reject religion outright, because the only way we're going to know one way or the other is to die. There are many good lessons to be learned.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: jjkenobi

There are sane, mathematical models that predict that alien life almost assuredly exists in the cosmos. No such models exist for god.

John 10:16 -
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One interpretation is that these "other sheep" are peoples from another continent - and others interpret it to mean other planets.

originally posted by: stutteringp0et
Maybe a different interpretation is in order

1. pick a god, any god (unlike the greeks, who worshipped many gods - blaming/crediting them for everything)

Why does it have to be one god? Do you have any proof that polytheism is wrong? I have the same amount of disbelief for polytheism, monotheism, and atheism. The first commandment doesn't apply to agnostics.

2. don't worship idols (I'd put celebrities in this category...but that's just me)

Hero worship drives people to better themselves. I look up to Sam Bush as a Mandolin player so that I can emulate his style and build my own style.

3. it makes you sound childish, and nobody likes to hear it anyway

So is sounding childish a crime? I happen to like cussing. I drop f bombs like it is going out of style and I don't give a damn about using god's name in vane. I like how it makes people uncomfortable to hear those words, but that is just the way I am. I believe that shunning words gives them the power of nastiness. When you use them like any other word, they lose their poignancy and stigma.

4. everyone deserves a day off

Ok, I see your point here. I like days off too.

There's no reason to reject religion outright, because the only way we're going to know one way or the other is to die. There are many good lessons to be learned.

Actually yes, there is a reason to reject religion, any religion outright. They are all creations of man are therefore flawed. They all try to make assertions about the universe without qualifying evidence to support those statements. You are right, the only way we will know for sure is when we die. So let's just wait until then and forget about religion altogether. It's not like any of us will miss out on the experience of death.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

There are sane, mathematical models that predict that alien life almost assuredly exists in the cosmos. No such models exist for god. So it really isn't comparable.

and yet the prevailing scientific model is the big bang.......

That everything spontaneously came from NOTHING in one cosmic cataclysm.........

Which kind of goes against science itself doesnt it?.........

That being said, the world has taken this as doctrine........

No such models exist for god. So it really isn't comparable.

Perhaps all those people who think religious people are ignorant fools can see their own ignorance in thinking of god as some "Man" they themselves are going to find in the sky........

Science explains a lot, perhaps "god" works within these perimeters we call the natural world, Perhaps they are looking at God every day in everything they cant explain......