UN Security Council Session on Ukraine - Latest updates

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

That's because they have been in control of Ukraine for most of that period. Russia has been in control of Ukraine during those years. Now outside forces try to hijack Ukraine, Russia bits back.

Really, Moscow has been in control of Ukraine the whole time they were not part of Russia...care to provide any evidence of that, because sovereign means they aren't ruled by anyone other than themselves.

sov·er·eign·ty (sŏv′ər-ĭn-tē, sŏv′rĭn-)
n. pl. sov·er·eign·ties
1. Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state.
2. Royal rank, authority, or power.
3. Complete independence and self-government.
4. A territory existing as an independent state.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

But feel to show me where a sovereign nation is run by another nation, as your saying Russia has done with Ukraine during their 20 years as a sovereign nation.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It's relevant, ufoorb, whether you like it or not.

The Russians took it by conquest in the 16th century, left it largely self governing but with encroaching centralisation culminating in the early 20th century killings of 1/3rd the population to be replaced by ethnic Russians, then, as tsurfer2000h says, they left it alone again with the collapse of the Soviet Union until Putin starts trying to tell his neighbours what to do.

I notice, however, you decided to not deal with my comment about other examples of historical revisionism and only looking at the past 100 years:

With that line of thinking, Scotland doesn't exist, neither does Wales, Ireland should still be part of the UK, as should Canada and Australia, France should still be in control of Morroco, Tunisia and large chunks of sub-Saharan Africa, we should still have 1/3rd of Africa and Hong Kong...

Ukraine has been an independent country since 1991, when the Soviet Union Fell and even when it was an SSR, it was nominally an "independent country" within the USSR from 1922, so for the past 100 years (as you wish to focus on) it has been a state in it's own right for 93 of them.

The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, commonly referred to as Ukraine or Soviet Ukraine, was a sovereign Soviet socialist state and one of the fifteen constituent republics of the Soviet Union from its inception in 1922 to its breakup in 1991.

The Ukrainian SSR was a founding member of the United Nations, although it was legally represented by the All-Union state in its affairs with countries outside of the Soviet Union. Upon the Soviet Union's dissolution and perestroika, the Ukrainian SSR was transformed into the modern nation-state of Ukraine, although Ukraine's new constitution was only ratified on 28 June 1996.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It is theirs mate

And yet it isn't.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It is theirs mate

And yet it isn't.

Putin doesn't see it your way

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

So? Doesn't make him right.

He's just pissy because no-one is being pushed around by Russia any more and regards them as a has-been nation clinging to the past. The only people who care what Russia thinks are the Russians.

It's not real Stu. Why don't you see that? Ukraine is not a real country. That's why Moscow will never allow it to go to NATO, it's too strategic for them. Defo not a real country, when you've got a powerful neighbour like Russia there is always going to be influences.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

In fact, I will point this out to you - under the Soviet Union, nominally Russia was on the same pegging as Ukraine as it too was simply an SSR with it's own Government separate from the USSR...

So, for the past 100 years, it was the USSR that controlled Ukraine, not Russia and seeing as the USSR ceased to exist in 1991, so did any control it had over Ukraine.

But I don't expect you to understand the nuances of the USSR and how it was governed.....

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It was real enough to be an SSR and to have been a founding member of the UN, ufoorb.

Twist and turn all you like, you're just making it worse for yourself. Russia has had no control over Ukraine since the collapse of the Russian Empire.

Here, have a read:

USSR

Russian SFSR

Ukraine SSR

On 28 December 1922, a conference of plenipotentiary delegations from the Russian SFSR, the Transcaucasian SFSR, the Ukrainian SSR and the Byelorussian SSR approved the Treaty of Creation of the USSR and the Declaration of the Creation of the USSR, forming the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

So? Doesn't make him right.

He's just pissy because no-one is being pushed around by Russia any more and regards them as a has-been nation clinging to the past. The only people who care what Russia thinks are the Russians.

Rubbish and that's where you've been brain washed by the media. My Ukranian friend, Azeri by birth, visits Kiev frequently, says most Ukranians want Russia back in control. Their jobs have gone, factories closed, fuel and gas doubled, mafia in control of the country.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ha, "my Ukrainian friend"...

That sounds very much like the old cliché "I don't hate Gay people, I have many Gay friends" but unable to name one...

Even if he is real, he is not representative.

EDIT: Azeri? He isn't even Ukrainian! Azerbaijan is his home country.....

a reply to: stumason

Russia is the sucessor to the USSR, they are one and the same. Only bits around the edges have been stolen by NATO/EU/American underhand tactics. Now Russia wants them back, simple

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ha, "my Ukrainian friend"...

That sounds very much like the old cliché "I don't hate Gay people, I have many Gay friends" but unable to name one...

Even if he is real, he is not representative.

He is representative. They don't want Americans and NATO. He was born in Azerbaijan, he said how wonderful it was when you could live anywhere in the USSR, people were people, all going for a common aim. This before the USA promoted nationalism through NGOs and a nationalism developed that tore the Soviet experiment apart. He says most people in Kiev think just like him.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Not quite.....

Russia assumed them mantle upon collapse of the USSR at the UN, but it was just a constituent part of the USSR like the other SSR's. By 1991, all but two of the Republics had declared independence (including Ukraine), the other being Kazakhstan which soon followed, leaving Russia as the only state within the USSR and de facto successor of the USSR and it's assets.

Basically, what you're saying is that not only does Ukraine belong to Russia , but so do Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Tajikistan, Moldova, Kyrgyzstan, Lithuania, Turkmenistan, Armenia, Latvia and Estonia, despite the fact that Russia was simply another constituent SSR within the USSR.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Uh-huh....

Excuse me, I have a cough...>bullcrap<

Sorry about that...

Just seems a little convenient for you to pull some Azerbaijan (wrong country, still, btw) out of the woodwork to try and back up your silly idea's.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ufoorbhunter



EDIT: Azeri? He isn't even Ukrainian! Azerbaijan is his home country.....

Rather ethnic based statement there Stu.People moved around the USSR quite a bit back then as it was one country. People were people then. Nationalistic labels based on ethno religious ideas didn't appy. You do know Ukraine like Russia is one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world? Due to it's geographic position, plus the fact that in the good old times as he says nobody cared what SSR you came from, they could live anywhere and were just people- before the USA promoted nationalism of course to tear the experiment apart.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ufoorbhunter



Basically, what you're saying is that not only does Ukraine belong to Russia , but so do Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Tajikistan, Moldova, Kyrgyzstan, Lithuania, Turkmenistan, Armenia, Latvia and Estonia, despite the fact that Russia was simply another constituent SSR within the USSR.

Kazachstan and Belorussia are run by Moscow, he told me that. Their officers are Russian trained, their miltary and airspace are all Russian dominated. Armenia too, even Russia reains in control of Azerbaijan, ha said the peace keepers in Nagorno Karabach are actually top Russian units lol. That made me smile. Quite a few of the Stans too. Russia never relinquished control Stu, it never will over Ukraine, at least over a good half of it anywa

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Putin doesn't see it your way

So now Putin is gospel when it comes to Ukraine.

What would you expect coming from a KGB officer that has stolen his wealth from the people he now rules.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

I see your Azerbaijan and I raise you one big Ukrainian I work with called Vladimir Tsymbalyuk here at Vodafone. He hails from the West of Ukraine, is around 45 years old and has family back there. He has been nothing but critical of Russia and supportive of recent events. He also really likes rollercoasters...

As for the last bit, about "promoting nationalism" had nothing to do with the collapse of the USSR and you should know that.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

My Ukranian friend, Azeri by birth, visits Kiev frequently, says most Ukranians want Russia back in control.

And yet this says differently...

According to a poll published over the weekend by Ukrainian newspaper Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, or The Weekly Mirror in English, only 15 percent of Ukrainian respondents in eight southern and eastern regions want to join in a union with Russia. The poll confirms a previous one that claimed that 52.2 percent of people in the city of Donetsk, which is near the border with Russia, said they were against joining Russia, while only 27.5 percent favored rule from Moscow, according to Agence-France Presse.

www.pbs.org...

But hey what is what a majority of the people say when you have a friend that tells you differently.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Kazachstan and Belorussia are run by Moscow, he told me that.

And if he told you there were Unicorns on the moon would that mean it was true?