UN Security Council Session on Ukraine - Latest updates

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Ukraine belongs to Moscow whatever your history lesson says. Not Americans or Israeli passport holders. It is Russian

a reply to: stumason

No, it doesn't. By that reasoning, I assume you would be happy for the British Government to send in the tanks had the Scottish voted Yes last September? If not, then you're a bloody hypocrite in denial.

a reply to: johnnyjoe1979

Let me dumb it down for you even more then.

The US did not exist as a nation until the 1770's. Since history tells us the Europeans came to the new World and colonized long before that, it means they are also responsible. Again, since you glossed over it, that would include Russia and her holdings in North America.

How can the US be completely responsible for something that occurred prior to our existence? Or are you using the same logic with the Ukraine always was part of Russia comment?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h


It's from the Russian mind set you need to prove this to. I just see the world be a better place with a balance of power. From the Russian perspective Ukraine belongs to them. I don't understand why Americans don't ackowledge that the Russians have their own backyard with interests that are important to them. Ukraine is one of these interests, espevcially after NATO stabbed Russia in the back post Cold War be encroaching on its borders.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Ukraine belongs to Moscow whatever your history lesson says. Not Americans or Israeli passport holders. It is Russian.

Please explain to us what you meant when you invoked Israel into the conversation.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
While you love going after the Us if you did research you would know the nation with the distinction of invading the most countries would be Great Britain / United Kingdom. They have invaded every single country on the planet with the exception of 22.

Awesome record, isn't it?

No one is ever going to beat that, not even the mighty USA

Well, that is until I raise my Army of genetically enhanced super-humans in the Unification Wars before I lead them out into the Galaxy as part of my Great Crusade...... As a Brit, it comes naturally

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ah, now you change your tune when faced with the historical fact of the situation. Now its "From the Russian perspective Ukraine belongs to them." An entirely different concept than what you claimed before.

a reply to: Xcathdra

To be fair, much of the wiping out of the Native Americans occurred after 1776 with the expansion to the West... But lets not go off topic

EDIT: And the Spanish/Mexicans had a good deal of involvement in that as well....

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Because Ukraine is a sovereign nation and the citizens of Ukraine have a right to self determination in their own affairs. Russia, nor the West, owns Ukraine.

The only sphere of interest / near abroad Russia has is inside its own borders.

Ukraine, by the way, is not inside the borders of Russia.

We are talking from the mind set of Moscow here and to the Russians Ukraine is part of their nation interest. Just like Scotland is part of London's.I don't think the Scots should be allowed total independence either. It's not in London's interest for this to happen. Just like it's not in Moscow's interest for Ukraine to be truly independent. Just being honest and realistic, Ukraine is not a real country

a reply to: stumason

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
You shouldn't include Ukraine in that map, it's never been a real country.

But it has the aspiration to become one and they should have that right.

The other countries, Russia was invaded over and over and over again by so many countries it's astonishing, especially in around 1918 onwards.

As far as I know my history Russia used to belong to Prussia, which is German. Going back far enough it was all germanic tribes.

Then the Nazis. Then Americans tried to destroy it. Muslim terrorists. NATO. Oligarchs. The fact that Moscow is still in control today of the biggest nation on Planet Earth is actually incredible when one considers the last century.

It's the people that make or break a nation, not the amount of land.

a reply to: stumason

Sorry if it came across as a slight towards you guys. I just get a bit tired of being blamed for invasions by people who don't have an adequate understanding of world history.

As I have stated before -

"The sun never sets on the British Empire -

Because God does not trust the British in the dark."

The other thing I look at is the information resolving around invasions. personally speaking i'm an advocate of using military force when only humanitarian interests are present. Removing individuals from power who murder their own citizens is another issue.

Do we invade to prevent the dictator from killing his people?
Do we remain on the sidelines and watch while stating its not in my yard.

Would a country who sees the injustice and fails to act be just as responsible as the person committing the killings?

God save the Queen

Exactly. The powers in Washington sanctioned the wiping out of the native Americans. Goering derinitely had a point at Nuremburg

a reply to: stumason

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: Xcathdra

To be fair, much of the wiping out of the Native Americans occurred after 1776 with the expansion to the West... But lets not go off topic

EDIT: And the Spanish/Mexicans had a good deal of involvement in that as well....

All valid points. My argument was the US is not solely responsible. The poster invoked native Americans while ignoring the fact Russia was a part of that time period in North America as well.

If you blame one then you must also blame Russia.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The difference being that if the Scottish requested it, it would be allowed.

It would be totally unconscionable to send in the tanks to Edinburgh and claim the Lowlands because, historically, they were part of England (and they were, it is why Edinburgh is called Edinburgh, it was an Anglo-Saxon town).

In fact, the UK might be the most awesome, warmongering country on Earth, but when requested in the 20th century, we granted independence to every colony. In fact, many colonies were already quasi-independent from the 19th century (Canada and Australia, for example)

Ukraine is a country - they have their own institutions, there own language, their own customs and even when under the yoke of the Soviet Union, they had statehood (as did the other SSR's)

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Exactly. The powers in Washington sanctioned the wiping out of the native Americans. Goering derinitely had a point at Nuremburg

a reply to: stumason

That murdering Jews was somehow ok and acceptable? That non Aryans are somehow inferior? You do know Hitler signed an order for Goering's arrest and execution right?

Again, please clarify your comment about Israel and explain why you brought it up in this thread.

Taking Prussia off the Germans and eliminating Germans from their ancient homelands in Poland, East Prussia etc was merely cash back for Nazis attrocities. They should have known the results if Barbarossa failed, miracle they let they survive in Saxony when taking it

a reply to: johnnyjoe1979

a reply to: Xcathdra

I didn't take it as one, for better or worse, I'm proud of my nations history and impact on the world - even if it was meant as a slight, I saw it as jealousy lol

I am on the same page as you with regards to invasions. I am not anti-War, nor am I pro-War, but I recognise there are times when someone needs their arse kicking.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Indeedy

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

This would be where you just lost all credibility and not to mention just gave me your answer about why you invoked Israel into this conversation.

How about the Russians killing 25k+ Polish in the Katyn massacre ?
How about Stalin killing 20 million Russians?
Russia's illegal occupation of Kaliningrad?

That was what? Tough love for Heretics?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

How about taking Eastern Ukraine and Crimea off the Russians as "cash back" for the atrocities the Soviet Union brought upon the Ukraine then?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

They are now taking back what was theirs from what can only be described as thieves

Except the fact Ukraine was founded long before Russia had anything to do with them.

There were numerous tribes in Ukraine, some nomadic, some agricultural; most of the time at war with each other. The oldest known main inhabitants of Ukraine were Cimmerians. They were replaced in 5th century BC by Scythians, who ruled till 2nd century BC; Sarmatian tribes then replaced them. Later in 1st century AD the tribesmen of the dominant horde were called Alanis.

In 1169 prince Andrey Bogolyubski conquered and destroyed Kyiv and established his capital in Vladimir near present site of Moscow, thus originating present Russian state.

www.torugg.org...

So as you can see Ukraine was around before Russia decided to take it for themselves...history is a fun thing to learn when you actually look.