UN Security Council Session on Ukraine - Latest updates

Nah Britain didn't really leave its colonies Stu. It's just gone back to pre East India days. They strill control those places, just don't needs boots on the ground when you've got the City of London. Afterall big Corps still control much of the 'Empire' just like big French Corps still control much of their previous Empire. Still in control. Who needs British police when you've got Anglo American plc?

a reply to: stumason

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

How about taking Eastern Ukraine and Crimea off the Russians as "cash back" for the atrocities the Soviet Union brought upon the Ukraine then?

Ukraine belongs to Russia Stu. It's just been that way for hundreds of years.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Yeah, ok... You keep believing that drivel..

Meanwhile, in the real world...

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Exactly. The powers in Washington sanctioned the wiping out of the native Americans. Goering derinitely had a point at Nuremburg

a reply to: stumason

That murdering Jews was somehow ok and acceptable? That non Aryans are somehow inferior? You do know Hitler signed an order for Goering's arrest and execution right?

Again, please clarify your comment about Israel and explain why you brought it up in this thread.

Both disgusting atrocities commited by the Germans and Yanks. Despicable acts the pair of them.

Why did I bring up Israel? Read back please.

Porkyshenko was in Tel Aviv days before taking power. Israeli business interests are massive in Eastern Europe many people having recently come from there to take up pass ports in Israel.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

No, it doesn't. Before the Russians stole it through invasion, it belonged to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. They enjoyed a good amount of autonomy under the Empire, but it was eroded over the centuries until the 20th, when the Soviets took over and pretty much wiped out a good portion of the population, estimates of up to 30% of the population died by the 1930's (including the Cossacks) to replace them with "ethnic Russians" afterwards.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Both disgusting atrocities commited by the Germans and Yanks. Despicable acts the pair of them.

What atrocities was the US involved in?

Don't forget Russia, who was allied with the Nazis until Barbarossa. don't forget Russia invaded Poland with Germany and seized / occupied the territory.

Secondly Russia / USSR was not a signatory to any of the Geneva conventions during WWII.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Why did I bring up Israel? Read back please.

Porkyshenko was in Tel Aviv days before taking power. Israeli business interests are massive in Eastern Europe many people having recently come from there to take up pass ports in Israel.

Your sugarcoating your response in an effort to hide what you meant. Your comments thus far would suggest you agreed with the Nazi policies towards the Jews and other persecuted groups?


Again - if this is not what you are saying then please clarify.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Ukraine belongs to Russia Stu. It's just been that way for hundreds of years.

Even Russia recognise the sovereignty of Ukraine, although at the moment they are acting like they want chunks and have already taken Crimea.

It must have been very difficult for Russia to see the Soviet Union collapse and all their old vassal states run away into the arms of the liberal democratic West. Most are doing quite well and are richer than Russia! It would have been nice for all those nations to stay aligned to Russia, but they had such a bad time under Soviet dominion they could not wait to leave! Ukraine, having removed itself from the Soviet Union, is a late runner having tried to work with an authoritarian and corrupt Russia and found it wanting. Ukraine has watched Poland get richer, while they have remained impoverished by the Russian link.

You may find it helpful to research the history of Ukraine, or the geographical area that comprises Ukraine. This may result in you making an objective assessment as to whether Russia "belongs" to Ukraine.

Deny ignorance.

Regards

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It's from the Russian mind set you need to prove this to.

Why Russians already know that Ukraine wasn't always there's, but of course Russia has a problem with actually being truthful about their history, and you proved that with saying Ukraine has always been Russia's.

I don't understand why Americans don't ackowledge that the Russians have their own backyard with interests that are important to them.

And whats funny is they have had no problems dealing with Ukraine before this conflict...but all of the sudden the Russians feel they need to take back land that hasn't been under their control for over 20 years...why now?

espevcially after NATO stabbed Russia in the back post Cold War be encroaching on its borders.

Stabbed them in the back you say...I guess you forgot NATO turned Ukraine down the first time they wanted to be part of NATO...but of course that bit of info seems to be overlooked.

Also I guess you forget Russia was working right along with NATO before they decided to annex part of Ukraine.

Claim: NATO is a threat to Russia

Fact: NATO has reached out to Russia consistently, transparently and publicly over the past 25 years.

The Alliance has created unique cooperation bodies - the Permanent Joint Council and the NATO-Russia Council - to embody its relationship with Russia. It has invited Russia to cooperate on missile defence, an invitation extended to no other partner.

In the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security, agreed with Russia in 1997 and reaffirmed at NATO-Russia summits in Rome in 2002 and in Lisbon in 2010, NATO stated that "in the current and foreseeable security environment, the Alliance will carry out its collective defence and other missions by ensuring the necessary interoperability, integration, and capability for reinforcement rather than by additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces". The Alliance has fulfilled all such commitments.

www.nato.int...

So to say NATO stabbed Russia in the back is a fallacy brought on by Russia to give them some type of reason to do what they did in Ukraine.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ukraine belongs to Russia Stu. It's just been that way for hundreds of years.

And yet for centuries before that it didn't so your argument is not really a valid one.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Give up using the Jew card for heavens sake. I was referring to a comparison of evil acts committed at that time brought up by Goering at Nuremberg in his defence. He was right, USA did much the same to lands it conquered. Both terrible occupations of other peoples lands.

You're last stand of defence using the Jew card? That's wrong Xcathdra. I'd have been gassed under the Nazis............ Don't even go there

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ukraine belongs to Russia Stu. It's just been that way for hundreds of years.

And yet for centuries before that it didn't so your argument is not really a valid one.

Blimey how far you going back lol. Lets hand everything back to the neanderthals. Fot the best part of recent history Ukraine has been controlled in one way or another from Moscow. It's in Moscow's national interest, don't you see that?

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

No, it doesn't. Before the Russians stole it through invasion, it belonged to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. They enjoyed a good amount of autonomy under the Empire, but it was eroded over the centuries until the 20th, when the Soviets took over and pretty much wiped out a good portion of the population, estimates of up to 30% of the population died by the 1930's (including the Cossacks) to replace them with "ethnic Russians" afterwards.

Stop going back so far. You're out of memory it's the last hundreds of years that count, not the stone age. Russia has a national interest in keeping certain interest out of Ukraine through control by one means or another.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

So what you're saying is that you would have no problem with countries like Germany attacking Russia to get the land back that was stolen from that at the end of World War II.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Er, no, it doesn't work like that.

You can't draw a line in the sand and say, "Well, from 1914 it was Russian and we should ignore the previous 500 years of history for the region just because it makes me look daft"....

With that line of thinking, Scotland doesn't exist, neither does Wales, Ireland should still be part of the UK, as should Canada and Australia, France should still be in control of Morroco, Tunisia and large chunks of sub-Saharan Africa, we should still have 1/3rd of Africa and Hong Kong...

See where I am going?

Stop going back so far? That almost sounded like a desperate plea....

"Stop going back so far... My argument is blown wide open if you don't conform to the narrow definitions I have laid out"

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Blimey how far you going back lol.

Far enough to show you Russia hasn't always owned Ukraine, as you want others to believe.

Fot the best part of recent history Ukraine has been controlled in one way or another from Moscow.

Wrong as Kyiv was the power center until it was moved to Moscow.

In 1169 prince Andrey Bogolyubski conquered and destroyed Kyiv and established his capital in Vladimir near present site of Moscow, thus originating present Russian state.

www.torugg.org...

So when you say they have always owned Ukraine you only meant recently and not always as your trying to make one believe?

Also I guess history only goes back a couple hundred years for you, because you seem to just pass over everything before that.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

We;re only going back to the late medieval period, ufoorb. It's not that far at all and in Europe's case, much of our modern history and story of our nations is tied into what happened back then.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It's in Moscow's national interest, don't you see that?

And yet in the last twenty years Ukraine was on their own Russia had no problem with Ukraine, but now all of a sudden they want to take it back.

If it were in their national interest they would have not waited 20 years to do something like they have done in Ukraine.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

In 1169 prince Andrey Bogolyubski conquered and destroyed Kyiv and established his capital in Vladimir near present site of Moscow, thus originating present Russian state.

www.torugg.org...

and that just about sums up what is a fact. Moscow is the power base here. Outside influences trying to prise Russia and its interests apart.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It's in Moscow's national interest, don't you see that?

And yet in the last twenty years Ukraine was on their own Russia had no problem with Ukraine, but now all of a sudden they want to take it back.

If it were in their national interest they would have not waited 20 years to do something like they have done in Ukraine.

That's because they have been in control of Ukraine for most of that period. Russia has been in control of Ukraine during those years. Now outside forces try to hijack Ukraine, Russia bits back.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

We;re only going back to the late medieval period, ufoorb. It's not that far at all and in Europe's case, much of our modern history and story of our nations is tied into what happened back then.

The flippin medeival period, blimey let's go back to the ice age. The truth is Ukraine is part of Russia for the last few centuries. It is theirs mate