They were never there: Russia's silence for families of troops killed in Ukraine

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

3 people is huge since Strelkov claimed he was the one who started the entire mess.

ATS Strelkov claims responsibility

a reply to: Xcathdra

someone had to start fighting back at some point. if it wasnt strelkov it would have been someone else. people were being attacked were they not? from what i understand sterlkov had a personality that made him feel responsible for everything, such things like friends that made a bad first impression on his parents. so i hardly see how this mans opinion is any proof of anything. the people that started it were the ones that were attacking anti EU/Ukraine govt protesters. but yes blame the ones that retaliated to the attacks. always blame the victim. always.

you need to start looking at things from multiple perspectives not just your own narrow bias.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I'm just keen to see the resident Pro-Putin crowd come along and hear what they have to say...

Although evidence like this from soldiers families etc has been around for months - the BBC had a report on it last September I think and it got dismissed as "Western propaganda" then.

Here be a report from August

Indeed, the pro-Russians even called Russian journalists attacked in Russia for daring to attempt to report on it "Western propagandists", despite the fact those journalists had been pro-Putin up until this point, and despite the fact they actually filmed the fresh graves and spoke to grieving families who knew they were being lied to.

I think it's safe to say that those who still deny that Russian troops have invaded Ukraine are either of three things... 1. Kremlin propagandists, 2. Mentally unstable deniers of reality or 3. Both.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason

the SU shooting down mh17 isn't a fabrication, its a good lead as to who did it based in alot of facts. you can twist and turn it however you #en want doesn't change a thing.

Ukraine is sovereign regardless of how much you, pro Russian and Russia state the opposite.

An aircraft did not shoot down MH17 - A buk missile fired from rebel territory did.

The reconstruction of the aircraft confirms that.

yeah they sure are, and so are the SELF PROCLAIMED(NOT RUSSIAN! SELF!!!) DPR and LPR. THEY HAVE THE RIGHT OF SELF DETERMINATION. Sovereignty doesn't equate to taking away peoples rights. and thats exactly what ukrainians were doing by attacking protesters and its exactly what they are doing now by attacking people who are opposed to them.

see i believe in a little thing called freedom. and with this thing called freedom people are allowed to choose wtf they want to do with their lives. the people in the east have spoken loud and proud, the same way that the people in the west have shown they want to be a part of the EU. it is their right, no one is telling Ukraine they cant join the EU. but the east and crimea arent coming along for the ride. i dont know why this is so hard for you to understand.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

no there a poles and english speaking people in ukraine, among others, too. theres actual evidence of that.

Has anybody said there wasn't, because as far as I can see there isn't. And again English is spoken in most countries of the world so obviously there would be.

what makes you think anyone in the russian government was even talking to pavel.

You really aren't that naive are you?

Observers from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) have met with illegally jailed micronationalist Pavel Gubarev, after Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov had sent letters to the OSCE, and to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), requesting immediate access to Gubarev.

intermicronational.com...

The Russian government wouldn't request access to him if he were just a simple civilian that went to Ukraine unless he were there for them. Has the Russian government asked for immediate access to any separatist that is Ukrainian and that has been arrested in Ukraine...simple answer is NO.

WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

My point is that Russia had Russian's heading the separatists...something you seem to want to deny. Also you asked the question of naming a Russian who ran the separatists and I gave you three.

are you really trying to argue that its ok that Ukrainian neo nazis are killing innocents because Pavel lives in Ukraine and may or may not hold some sort of position of importance within Novorocciya?

I didn't say that now did I, but to say Ukraine has Nazi's while dismissing the fact that Russian neo Nazi's are in Ukraine fighting for and running the separatists is a bit hypocritical is it not?

Just because he lives in Ukraine doesn't dismiss the fact he is a known RNU member which is a Russian neo Nazi organization, or are you denying the fact that he is one?

Plus I never said he was a Russian did I?

the SU shooting down mh17 isn't a fabrication, its a good lead as to who did it based in alot of facts.

Really what facts would those be...

The fact that an SU 25 is not capable of flying high enough to do shoot down a passenger airliner at 33000 ft., or the fact that Russia was caught changing the wiki page to back their unreal claim.

Or was it the fact the plane couldn't even fly fast enough to catch up to a passenger airliner at cruising speed, or the fact that the plane doesn't have the radar to track a plane that this so called SU 25 would have had to do in order to shoot it down.

But please feel free to show what facts you think prove this plane could do this.

when did Russia tell them what to do?

Well I see you don't know much as to the reason the protests started in the first place do you?

Let's see...Ukraine was about to sign with the EU when Putin gives them the ultimatum of if they go with the EU they lose all free trade with Russia.

“Ukraine must make the decision itself,” Putin said at the end of an Italy-Russia summit in Trieste, Italy. If it were to sign a deal with Brussels, Kiev would have to drop free-trade arrangements with Russia “within two months,” he added.

www.iol.co.za...-So

And we see what happened with that now don't we?

but the people living out east who want no part of it can do what they want as well.

And it seems they don't want to leave Ukraine and join Russia, but want a more autonomous territory that is still part of Ukraine.

But these separatists appear to represent the small minority of Donetsk residents who want to separate from Ukraine. A poll conducted by the Institute of Social Research and Political Analysis, based in Donetsk, found that 65 percent of people in the city preferred it to remain part of Ukraine.

www.aljazeera.com...

Now if you were to believe what Russia is saying then you would think they want to be part of Russia which is a fallacy as shown by the article I linked.

Russia didn't start this. you can say they did all you want but it doesn't change anything. this was started by meddling of western interests and a government coup but "you and a few others seem to forget that".

You really have no clue as to what started this do you?

This started in Nov. of 2013, when the then president reversed his promise to sign with the EU, after being given the ultimatum by Russia, but of course the US was behind it because that is what Russia wants you to believe all the while leaving out the fact they gave Ukraine the ultimatum of what happens if they do sign with the EU.

But of course with all your research you already know this right?

keep ignoring facts because they don't gel with your dumb opinion all you want.

My dumb opinions that are based on the facts...it is you that has mislead yourself with the facts that come from Russia and their propaganda machine of media.

And a few others here that like to distort the facts.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

wooow 3 people? cooool. case closed, russia did it.

Well glad you finally decided to admit it...doesn't it feel good to finally understand the truth.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

see i believe in a little thing called freedom.

And do you believe Russia affords it's citizens with it, and do you believe the East of Ukraine will have that with Russia?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

And yet Russia is the only one with active boots on the ground

Has anybody said there wasn't, because as far as I can see there isn't.

yeah you... twice. i can show you videos but you keep attacking me about my lack of research so ill just attack you on your lack of research as well. RESEARCH IT!. a video of someone speaking English just surface and i know you know about it. so there's just one example out of many.

im not denying that Russia is heading the separatists. i keep telling you OVER AND OVER AND OVER that i know for sure they are, but it doesn't change anything, the separatists have a right to self determination. i could care less who is helping them.

I didn't say that now did I, but to say Ukraine has Nazi's while dismissing the fact that Russian neo Nazi's are in Ukraine fighting for and running the separatists is a bit hypocritical is it not?

no its one guy, pavel, who has minimal effect on the separatist forces. the guy is an idiot, listening to him talk for any amount of time could tell you that he isnt capable of running a damn thing. the separatists are ran by UKRAINIAN CITIZENS. people that have lived their whole lives there. people that build the structures that occupy the land.

Plus I never said he was a Russian did I?

what? are you trying to make a point or something? what do you even mean by that? and yes you did say he was Russian, but i still dont know what you are trying to imply, if anything.

Really what facts would those be...

uhh the fact that the investigators initial findings was that they had thought that the plane was hit by a jet cannon and the fact that there was a Ukrainian jet in the same airspace as mh17. i don't know anything about the plane so im not going to pretend i do, unlike yourself. and at first i did think it was the separatists that shot it down, possibly thinking it was a Ukrainian supply plane but after i saw some more evidence my mind changed. cuz im an enlightened being, my mind changes and adapts to situations. i dont let a bias guide my judgement.

the corbet report did a good piece on it, i suggest you watch it. but i know you wont. no amount of logic or evidence will change your mind. this isnt a sports game. dont pick a side and shill. think about PEOPLE have some empathy, realize that human freedom and lives matter more than what the UN or US deem as legal or illegal.

Let's see...Ukraine was about to sign with the EU when Putin gives them the ultimatum of if they go with the EU they lose all free trade with Russia.

that's not telling them what to do, that's telling them whats gonna happen if they choose to do what they were going to do.

but lets look at what happened after ukraine decided to not sign the EU agreement, a coup happened because the only choice ukraine had was US or no one. keep denying it all you want does change the fact of what happened.

Now if you were to believe what Russia is saying then you would think they want to be part of Russia which is a fallacy as shown by the article I linked.

ohh so its ok that they were attacked, because they were a minority. please tell me who, out of all the victims of Odessa, were part of the DPR? you dont have to be in the DPR to disagree with the nazi coup government.

You really have no clue as to what started this do you?

yeah, a bunch of political #ery followed by an illegal coup.

My dumb opinions that are based on the facts.

no your opinion is based on facts that support your opinion and nothing else. ive never seen you once even recognize anything that doesn't fit your bias. confirmation bias at its finest. its almost like you were bred in a lab to be easily mislead.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

the fact that the investigators initial findings was that they had thought that the plane was hit by a jet cannon and the fact that there was a Ukrainian jet in the same airspace as mh17.

Do you have a source for these claims?

And do you believe Russia affords it's citizens with it, and do you believe the East of Ukraine will have that with Russia?

# yeah they do. Putin and his government doesn't have a sky high approval rating because they subjugate and take the rights of their people.

except for the gays, they could be treated better.

you dont know my people, you dont know how we think, you dont know our culture, you dont know anything. stop judging things you arent qualified to judge.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

# yeah they do. Putin and his government doesn't have a sky high approval rating because they subjugate and take the rights of their people.

No, he has a sky high approval rating because he controls all the media, keeping you in ignorance of how terrible your situation really is. But he does look good with his shirt off.

a reply to: DJW001

my situation? my situation is that im sitting in ohio watching america keep trying to tell me what happens around the world without presenting any valid evidence. a news article titled "putins missile" isnt a factual recounting of events. neither is a cut together phone call that made no sense if you understand the language and some twitter posts.

as for sources just watch this.. or don't, i don't care. you've already made up your mind.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

Actually people are more than qualified to judge what's going on in Russia. It does not require an advanced degree or spending 20 years living there.

Putins actions and the manner in which he manipulates the Russian people is also well established - both from the USSR as well as Nazi Germany.

If You don't want people judging Putin then maybe he should withdraw Russian forces from Ukrainian territory. Absent that he is a failed midnight robber whose ego is so large he doesn't see what he does as wrong.


Since you claim to be Russian let me put it this way -
Some Russians refuse to see what's going on because its impossible to see the trees when you are standing in the middle of the forest.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: DJW001

my situation? my situation is that im sitting in ohio watching america keep trying to tell me what happens around the world without presenting any valid evidence. a news article titled "putins missile" isnt a factual recounting of events. neither is a cut together phone call that made no sense if you understand the language and some twitter posts.

as for sources just watch this.. or don't, i don't care. you've already made up your mind.

So a guy sitting in front of a home computer, broadcasting on YouTube is your source for information on events occurring halfway around the world? Never mind.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

# yeah they do.

Might want to ask the gay community about those freedoms you think your people have. Oh and how about those who blog and their freedoms that your beloved president has taken from them. And if you protest you are branded a foreign agent...great freedoms.

As far as East Ukraine...Russia has decided they want nothing to do with bringing them into the Russian family.

As a new ceasefire begins Tuesday between Ukraine and pro-Russia separatists in the east of the country, the Kremlin plunged the political fate of the contested regions of Donetsk and Luhansk into uncertainty. According to the left-leaning Russian daily newspaper Novaya Gazeta, which cited officials within the Kremlin, sources within the cabinet of ministers and pro-Russian insurgents, Russia has abandoned the idea of either war-torn region becoming an independent state, instead preferring that both remain autonomous regions within Ukraine.

www.ibtimes.com...

you dont know my people, you dont know how we think, you dont know our culture, you dont know anything. stop judging things you arent qualified to judge.

But your qualified to judge the US and tell me how bad they are...you know what that is called right?

Hypocrite.

a reply to: Xcathdra

no duh, but just because you manipulate a public opinion doesn't mean you are lying.

Putins actions and the manner in which he manipulates the Russian people is also well established - both from the USSR as well as Nazi Germany.

real cute, compare Russia to nazi Germany some more. Its easy to see when someone has run out of # to say when they start pulling this garbage out of their bag.

and while were at this childishness we should just go ahead and compare the US and EU to nazi Germany for supporting Nazis in Ukraine, controlling media, manipulating public opinion, attacking other countries by use of false flags and accusations, controlling other countries politics, and etc.

If You don't want people judging Putin then maybe he should withdraw Russian forces from Ukrainian territory. Absent that he is a failed midnight robber whose ego is so large he doesn't see what he does as wrong.

and leave the separatists to their fate? you can judge him all you god damn want, i dont care. he should be more agressive in helping the separatists. again dude i believe that peoples lives and their freedom matters over all other things. no matter what the UN deems as illegal can make me stop caring about PEOPLE.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

neither is a cut together phone call that made no sense if you understand the language and some twitter posts.

But those are okay when they benefit RUssia's narrative of event's...Imagine that.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

neither is a cut together phone call that made no sense if you understand the language and some twitter posts.

But those are okay when they benefit RUssia's narrative of event's...Imagine that.

bro are you really referring to nulands call? are you joking right now? what evidence is there that it was cut together?

as for the twitter thing yes, i was trying to make a point when i told zaphod "you're right. dont even know why i brought it up"

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: DJW001

my situation? my situation is that im sitting in ohio watching america keep trying to tell me what happens around the world without presenting any valid evidence. a news article titled "putins missile" isnt a factual recounting of events. neither is a cut together phone call that made no sense if you understand the language and some twitter posts.

as for sources just watch this.. or don't, i don't care. you've already made up your mind.

So a guy sitting in front of a home computer, broadcasting on YouTube is your source for information on events occurring halfway around the world? Never mind.

yeah well if you just click on his show notes in the description you can see what his sources are cant you? or do you now know how. *pro tip!* you click it with you mouse.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

no duh, but just because you manipulate a public opinion doesn't mean you are lying.

No but when you run the media then your trying to manipulate public opinion in your favor. Something Putin has been doing.

real cute, compare Russia to nazi Germany some more.

But it's okay to do it to Ukraine...gotcha.

Its easy to see when someone has run out of # to say when they start pulling this garbage out of their bag.

Yes it is, as we have been seeing it from the pro Russian crowd since this conflict started.

and while were at this childishness we should just go ahead and compare the US and EU to nazi Germany for supporting Nazis in Ukraine, controlling media, manipulating public opinion, attacking other countries by use of false flags and accusations, controlling other countries politics, and etc.

See you just did it right there...Amazing.

he should be more agressive in helping the separatists. again dude i believe that peoples lives and their freedom matters over all other things.

Obviously you don't.