Europe’s Leading Rabbi: Jews Must Begin Carrying Guns

a reply to: DJW001

But Europe doesn't have the same gun culture as The States, gun ownership is allowed but the idea of having everybody walking round with concealed guns is horrific. Not only would you have to worry about a terrorist attack in a supermarket, but that you might get your face shot off by somebody's toddler.

a reply to: stumason

As I said, they already can arm themselves within the law. What the Rabbis is asking for (and you it seems) is for extra allowances to arm themselves above and beyond.

Here, verbatim, is what the Rabbi is actually asking for, which you have sometimes characterized as a "demand":

We hereby ask that gun licensing laws are reviewed with immediate effect to allow designated people in the Jewish communities and institutions to own weapons for the essential protection of their communities, as well as receiving the necessary training to protect their members from potential terror attacks.

Let there be no doubt, we are asking that all weapons will be issued for self-protection only, and to designated personnel that will undergo thorough investigation and training by local authorities.

freebeacon.com...

I see the word "reviewed," not "revised." He wants Brussels to look into the various gun control laws in Europe in a way that takes Jewish vulnerability into account. It is up to the Brilliant Statesmenpeople in Brussels to draft legislation that will please everyone.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: OneManArmy

So then, it seems you are saying everybody should be armed?

I am saying that people who have good reason to arm themselves in self defense should not be prevented from doing so. In the United States, this is actually considered a human right. I have repeatedly said that I have no problem with Muslims being armed with handguns to protect themselves from anti-Muslim violence, also a very real threat in Europe.

So you are advocating an arms race in the rest of the western world?
Im not so sure, I look at the US gun murder rate and shudder at the thought.
I agree with the right to self defense in principle, but the practice is lacking.
I dont think we as a species are intelligent enough or emotionally stable enough to be armed.
To see this fact, one simply needs to open their eyes.

originally posted by: DJW001
It is up to the Brilliant Statesmenpeople in Brussels to draft legislation that will please everyone.

You dont realise what an oxymoron that is.

"Brilliant", "Statespeople" and "Brussels" dont belong in the same sentence.

a reply to: OneManArmy

Good grief. We know that would be criminals and terrorists are armed. Do you want to make their task easier?

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: DJW001
It is up to the Brilliant Statesmenpeople in Brussels to draft legislation that will please everyone.

You dont realise what an oxymoron that is.

"Brilliant", "Statespeople" and "Brussels" dont belong in the same sentence.

Then the letter is irrelevant and this thread pointless, aren't they?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: OneManArmy

Good grief. We know that would be criminals and terrorists are armed. Do you want to make their task easier?

Does making guns more available to criminals make their life easier or harder?
Or does simply restricting guns full stop make it easier for criminals to arm themselves.

Criminals will arm themselves regardless of any laws.
The question is, do we make their access to hardware, easier or harder?

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: DJW001
It is up to the Brilliant Statesmenpeople in Brussels to draft legislation that will please everyone.

You dont realise what an oxymoron that is.

"Brilliant", "Statespeople" and "Brussels" dont belong in the same sentence.

Then the letter is irrelevant and this thread pointless, aren't they?

You said it!! Not me.

a reply to: DJW001

It wouldn't be Brussels that would decide surely, European countries have their own. Gun laws I can't see any of them allowing that right to be taken over by Europe, there would definitly be uproar in the UK.

a reply to: DJW001

Ok, so he wants a specially trained "Jewish" defence force - again, asking for something that is above and beyond. What is wrong with the normal law enforcement? By and large, it does it's job.

As I pointed out to you, more Jews have been killed in Israel by terrorism in the last 20 years than everyone of all groups in Europe during the same period. Yet, for some reason, Israel is "safer" and Europe is "dangerous" for Jews - there is the hyperbole underpinning this Rabbi's request.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: OneManArmy

Good grief. We know that would be criminals and terrorists are armed. Do you want to make their task easier?

As already pointed out to you, people across Europe can already own guns. In fact, in most EU countries, there isn't that much in the way of restrictions at all and are comparable with many US states. In some EU countries, you can even get a CCW license, just like the US. So again, more hyperbole claiming that EU citizenry are unarmed while the criminals and terrorists are.

a reply to: WilsonWilson

The EU lays down the minimum standard as it did so with directive 2008/51/EC - English text here....

It is down, as you correctly said, to the member states as to how to implement it. Some EU states, like the UK, already exceeded the minimum standards and as a result, made no changes.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978
criminals will find firearms in any conutry they operate in whether it is legal or not. but in the us where there has been violence there have been instances of concealed carry citizens syoping it and saving lives. in most countries in europe that allow ownership gun violence is low. bu no just giving one group the right would be wrong. there should be checks in place,.

a reply to: proteus33

Looking at the laws in the UK it wouldn't be allowed. Self defence is not a permitted reason to apply for a gun licence.

a reply to: stumason

Ok, so he wants a specially trained "Jewish" defence force - again, asking for something that is above and beyond. What is wrong with the normal law enforcement? By and large, it does it's job.

So why are there armed security firms like Brink's? If normal law enforcement is enough, why is money transported in armored cars? Or do you want your tax money to be used posting armed policemen at ever kosher supermarket, deli, synagogue, Jewish bookstore, etc?

As I pointed out to you, more Jews have been killed in Israel by terrorism in the last 20 years than everyone of all groups in Europe during the same period. Yet, for some reason, Israel is "safer" and Europe is "dangerous" for Jews - there is the hyperbole underpinning this Rabbi's request.

Israel is in a state of war. The institutions of the State of Israel are philo-Semitic. The state is explicitly charged with protecting Jews and Jewish culture. It would indeed be unreasonable for a European nation to offer such guarantees to Jews alone.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: OneManArmy

Good grief. We know that would be criminals and terrorists are armed. Do you want to make their task easier?


As already pointed out to you, people across Europe can already own guns. In fact, in most EU countries, there isn't that much in the way of restrictions at all and are comparable with many US states. In some EU countries, you can even get a CCW license, just like the US. So again, more hyperbole claiming that EU citizenry are unarmed while the criminals and terrorists are.

Please note that this "hyperbolic" comment was addressed to someone who objects to anyone being armed. I did not say, as you seem to believe, no-one in Europe can own guns. In fact, please link to where I said: "EU citizenry are unarmed while the criminals and terrorists are." Ironically, you keep claiming that I am the one distorting things when, in fact, almost every post you have made has attacked a strawman of your own devising.

originally posted by: DJW001
So why are there armed security firms like Brink's? If normal law enforcement is enough, why is money transported in armored cars?

Do they operate in the EU with armed guards? I doubt it, as that is illegal in many EU countries, so a piss-poor example I'm afraid.

originally posted by: DJW001
Or do you want your tax money to be used posting armed policemen at ever kosher supermarket, deli, synagogue, Jewish bookstore, etc?

If there is a specific threat, then as they are also taxpayers, this is what they contribute to the state for.

Outside of any specific threat, patrols can be increased as they would for any other community in similar situations. They can, by all means (and certainly do in the UK) operate their own security outfits such as the Shomrim, but these are unarmed (as per the law) and have no special powers or dispensations from the State such as has been requested by this Rabbi.

originally posted by: DJW001
Israel is in a state of war. The institutions of the State of Israel are philo-Semitic. The state is explicitly charged with protecting Jews and Jewish culture. It would indeed be unreasonable for a European nation to offer such guarantees to Jews alone.

And what has any of that got to do with what I said?

Ignoring the reasons why Israel thinks it is in a "state of war" (a situation largely of their own making), the fact remains that their PM and other Jewish leaders, including the Jews of France, have claimed they would "be safer" in Israel when statistically this is a fallacy. You are far more likely to be killed in an act of terror in Israel than anywhere in Europe, end of.

originally posted by: DJW001
Please note that this "hyperbolic" comment was addressed to someone who objects to anyone being armed. I did not say, as you seem to believe, no-one in Europe can own guns. In fact, please link to where I said: "EU citizenry are unarmed while the criminals and terrorists are." Ironically, you keep claiming that I am the one distorting things when, in fact, almost every post you have made has attacked a strawman of your own devising.

The implication was - and it is certainly the exact same argument that pro-gun people on ATS have used before when criticising gun laws - that the citizen is unarmed while the criminals/terrorists are. Apologies if that is not the thrust you were going for, but as I have said, this is the oft repeated argument for everyone being tooled up like Rambo on steroids.

As for "strawmen", point them out for me and we'll see just how well they stand up. Fact of the matter is, you have been unable to argue successfully for anything you have said and failed to counter any of my points. As for strawmen, I think you'll find it is your argument of "rising anti-Semitism" and that these attacks are against Jewish people in the main (because you couldn't remember specific details about plots, so made them up!) that is the strawman here.

Every argument you have presented has been weak at best and you have yet to convince me (or indeed anyone it seems) why Jewish groups should be allowed to be above the law and form their own "defence groups" against a threat that actually is decreasing as the years go by and is far more prevalent in their "homeland" than anywhere in Europe.

a reply to: stumason

I posted the links to the population of Jews and Muslims in Europe.

Could it be that the numbers are decreasing because the Jews are moving away?

If you feel safe in your country, why is that? Is your country so safe that you can walk freely into every neighborhood in every town and city and not feel unsafe?

If you don't feel safe in every quarter of every city or town, then why not? Are the Jews after you? Is that little yenta Jewish mother trying to attack you with a knife?

But you, personally, are you safe in every town and every city in your country?

And I will say this, as an American, I absolutely do not feel safe in every neighborhood in every town and city in the US. There simply is no safety no matter how many policemen are on patrol. Every American knows this, and every American can testify to that, we do not feel safe, all you have to do is go cruise some parts of cities and you will know what I mean. Right now, Indianapolis, the closest city to me, has a higher murder rate than Chicago. I don't feel safe in either place.

I am pro-gun because the Constitution allows for freedom to keep and bear arms, but personally I do not have a gun. But if you have seen some of our cities and the people that do have guns, you really would think twice before going to those parts without a gun. It's just not safe, and it is not really safe for us single women in our nice neighborhoods, the bad guys find a way to get in.

they are given power and weapons in 1917 - 1929 we have already passed Red Terror en.wikipedia.org... Red is the color of blood goyim false flag in the title because it was the color blue terror and terror has not changed in 6,000 years

All citizens in every single Country on Earth should have the right to defend themselves with firearms, against any bottom feeding criminals, just Iike it is here in the USA.

No group should be given special privileges over any other group though, let me make that clear.

We have scum bag politicians here in America like Diane Fienstein who seems to think that it's ok for her to have a carry and conceal permit, but the rest of us should not even own a firearm at all, let alone conceal it.

~$heopleNation

originally posted by: SheopleNation
All citizens in every single Country on Earth should have the right to defend themselves with firearms, against any bottom feeding criminals, just Iike it is here in the USA.

No group should be given special privileges over any other group though, let me make that clear.

We have scum bag politicians here in America like Diane Fienstein who seems to think that it's ok for her to have a carry and conceal permit, but the rest of us should not even own a firearm at all, let alone conceal it.

~$heopleNation

I think I am going to get a conceal and carry license, but no gun. At least I would be legal to carry a conceal and carry license.

Then when the bad guys approach me, I show them my legal license and perhaps that would scare them enough to back off?