Judge Rules Against Christian Florist Who Refused to Provide Flowers for Gay Wedding

originally posted by: Annee
Coupons, specials, etc singling out a specific characteristic HAVE been challenged in court as discriminatory.

Still, not the same as hiking prices because you don't like someone.

That is exactly my point. The public's opinion of what is and isn't right, or "the same", is not well defined legally. It is in a constant state of flux which depends entirely upon the belief and values of the population at any point in time. The courts will attempt to make a judgement call in this regard. That judgement call is directly influenced by the Judge and everybody else that might have some influence on the Judge's belief system.

ETA: Civil Rights Act sought to narrow this interpretation by stating unequivocally that sexual orientation is one factor that could not be considered a legitimate business reason.

originally posted by: compressedFusion

originally posted by: Annee
Coupons, specials, etc singling out a specific characteristic HAVE been challenged in court as discriminatory.

Still, not the same as hiking prices because you don't like someone.

That is exactly my point. The public's opinion of what is and isn't right, or "the same", is not well defined legally. It is in a constant state of flux which depends entirely upon the belief and values of the population at any point in time. The courts will attempt to make a judgement call in this regard. That judgement call is directly influenced by the Judge and everybody else that might have some influence on the Judge's belief system.

ETA: Civil Rights Act sought to narrow this interpretation by stating unequivocally that sexual orientation is one factor that could not be considered a legitimate business reason.

It's not really public opinion. It's law. Can a car wash have a Ladies Only discount day? Actually no. It's discriminatory. You can file a lawsuit on anything. Law is there to settle complaints. If no one complains, nothing is done.

Sexual orientation is not covered in the Civil Arights Act, except for government employees.

Sexual orientation discrimnation laws are by state.

originally posted by: compressedFusion

The public's opinion of what is and isn't right, or "the same", is not well defined legally. It is in a constant state of flux which depends entirely upon the belief and values of the population at any point in time.

Well spoken

If one were to travel the world, they would find that attitudes to homosexuality varies greatly. For example all the discriminatory laws in Russia are supported by the majority of the population there. Yet across the border in Scandinavia, they've always been quite okay with gay people.

In other countries it is still illegal, but the governemt turns a blind eye to it due to the fact people have reached a don't ask, don't tell kind of mentality.

In others still you'll find yourself beheaded for being gay.

Some in this thread have expressed that they have felt discriminated against because of their race. Others mentioned disabilities. Discrimination against both was made illegal long before discrimination against sexuality and yet, an element of problem still remains in both areas. As hard as we try, we will never 100% stamp it out.

This is where attitude comes in - you can let it ruin your wedding like the gay couple in the OP have, or you can move on, go elsewhere and still have the happiest of days.

a reply to: Annee

I noticed that you assumed I meant Federal Civil Rights Act. I actually almost clarified the point that I was referring to State Civil Rights, but I didn't think it was necessary (which of course varies from State to State).

I don't think the law is as clear cut as you are suggesting. I have nothing further to add about what is actually encoded in the law.

originally posted by: markosity1973
Others mentioned disabilities. Discrimination against both was made illegal long before discrimination against sexuality and yet, an element of problem still remains in both areas. As hard as we try, we will never 100% stamp it out.

This is where attitude comes in - you can let it ruin your wedding like the gay couple in the OP have, or you can move on, go elsewhere and still have the happiest of days.

It does seem to be a part of our nature. Maybe one day we will evolve past this.

originally posted by: compressedFusion
a reply to: Annee

I noticed that you assumed I meant Federal Civil Rights Act. I actually almost clarified the point that I was referring to State Civil Rights, but I didn't think it was necessary (which of course varies from State to State).

I don't think the law is as clear cut as you are suggesting.

OK. No worries

If laws were clear cut we wouldn't need lawyers.

originally posted by: compressedFusion

It does seem to be a part of our nature. Maybe one day we will evolve past this.

The whole point I've been trying to make, quite controversially it would seem, is this;

Gay people can now live more freely than ever before. When I was a kid I saw it become legalised and I witnessed first hand the ignorance and terrible attitude toward it from my own parents.

Fast forward to 2015 and if I were to move home, I could marry my partner of nine years if I so desired. I know not every country, including the one I now call home has progressed this far, but attitudes are changing and we all need to be grateful for that.

My parents and grandparent's generation could only dream of openly living with their same sex partner. Society had conditioned them to believe it was some kind of dire, perverted condition to fear and despise. Relationships were unable to be formed and life was misery if you were unfortunate enough to be gay in their time.

Sure things could still improve and there are some diehard dinosaurs remaining out there with rotten attitudes, but you know what?

I am just grateful to be here in this day and age and be able to have my partner at my side with our psychotic cat to keep us entertained.

Everyone can jump on the bandwagon of discrimination and the law if they want, but at the end of the day, the above is what life is about.

Gay people need to stop and take stock sometimes, some of us (me included) have gotten so used to struggling and fighting to get past the coming out and wrestling with out sexuality and family acceptance that we forget that we get to a point where we can lay down our arms in the society of today and be accepted by the great majority as just being like everyone else.

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: HUMBLEONE

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: HUMBLEONE
WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? WHAT IF JESUS WAS GAY?

What if the moon was made of cheese?

You could make a whole bunch of Martian macaroni and cheese. Do you think Christians would eat it?

If you could convince them God made the macaroni cheese then probably.
Jim Jones convinced his followers to drink poison.

Yea and God graduated from Johnson & Wales in Providence and used to hang out at Club Baby Head with a tall blonde who just dripped sexuality. But God didn't know she was God back then and couldn't seal the deal with the statuesque blonde and use to dream of what could have been. Jungle Boogie all night long till the break o dawn with blondie.
And thats how God learned to make macaroni & cheese at Johnson & Wales.

originally posted by: markosity1973

This is where attitude comes in - you can let it ruin your wedding like the gay couple in the OP have, or you can move on, go elsewhere and still have the happiest of days.

So, this is what you'd teach your child? Turn your cheek to discrimination, then go elsewhere where you're accepted.

You realize this is teaching your child that discrimination is OK, and you don't deserve equal treatment.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: markosity1973

This is where attitude comes in - you can let it ruin your wedding like the gay couple in the OP have, or you can move on, go elsewhere and still have the happiest of days.

So, this is what you'd teach your child? Turn your cheek to discrimination, then go elsewhere where you're accepted.

You realize this is teaching your child that discrimination is OK, and you don't deserve equal treatment.

To be fair, there is something to be said about teaching your child to follow the path of least resistence from time to time to maintain their own sanity, and not make a habit out of creating public drama.

Im sure my wife, myself, or my kids have been treated in a way that we would be in the right for protesting. But sometimes its just not worth it. My time is worth money, and all that.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: markosity1973

This is where attitude comes in - you can let it ruin your wedding like the gay couple in the OP have, or you can move on, go elsewhere and still have the happiest of days.

So, this is what you'd teach your child? Turn your cheek to discrimination, then go elsewhere where you're accepted.

You realize this is teaching your child that discrimination is OK, and you don't deserve equal treatment.

I take it you were not raised as a Christian? I was

Matthew 5:39

If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

If my life is not endangered, why should I waste good energy fighting over something petty like flowers for my wedding day?

If I were about to be imprisoned for my sexuality, you'd hear me shouting from the rooftops, trust me.

We made it past Anti-Miscegenation Laws.

This will become a thing of the past sooner or later.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: markosity1973

This is where attitude comes in - you can let it ruin your wedding like the gay couple in the OP have, or you can move on, go elsewhere and still have the happiest of days.

So, this is what you'd teach your child? Turn your cheek to discrimination, then go elsewhere where you're accepted.

You realize this is teaching your child that discrimination is OK, and you don't deserve equal treatment.

I take it you were not raised as a Christian? I was

Matthew 5:39

If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

If my life is not endangered, why should I waste good energy fighting over something petty like flowers for my wedding day?

If I were about to be imprisoned for my sexuality, you'd hear me shouting from the rooftops, trust me.

That's a dangerous road, rights are often lost little by little, a small change may not seem like much but pass by enough of it and you might have lost out on a fortune.

Let enough slip by, you might find that imprisonment you're afraid of.

originally posted by: Puppylove

That's a dangerous road, rights are often lost little by little, a small change may not seem like much but pass by enough of it and you might have lost out on a fortune.

Let enough slip by, you might find that imprisonment you're afraid of.

I am well aware of where the enemy is, just take a look at all of my posts in the forums about Jihadists. If anyone should be afraid of them taking over it is the gay community. Our heads would be among the first to come off.

We watch and we take action, but there are some things that simply need to be let go.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: markosity1973

This is where attitude comes in - you can let it ruin your wedding like the gay couple in the OP have, or you can move on, go elsewhere and still have the happiest of days.

So, this is what you'd teach your child? Turn your cheek to discrimination, then go elsewhere where you're accepted.

You realize this is teaching your child that discrimination is OK, and you don't deserve equal treatment.

If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

If my life is not endangered, why should I waste good energy fighting over something petty like flowers for my wedding day?

If I were about to be imprisoned for my sexuality, you'd hear me shouting from the rooftops, trust me.

Apathy is a dangerous road.

Guess you're comfortable on your doorstep.

a reply to: Annee
Read my post just above your response.

Make no mistake, I am willing to pick up a gun to defend our freedom against the tyranny of terrorism. I would give my life to protect us

This wedding flower thing is so minor it's laughable. We should be looking at bigger issues.

originally posted by: markosity1973
I am well aware of where the enemy is, just take a look at all of my posts in the forums about Jihadists. If anyone should be afraid of them taking over it is the gay community. Our heads would be among the first to come off.

We watch and we take action, but there are some things that simply need to be let go.

I agree with what you are saying. There are times when it's best to let certain things go so you can live to fight another day. Some people don't understand that. A person or group of people can't fight every injustice that comes up in this world. Some battles aren't worth the time and energy, I know this from experience.

This whole thing with the flowers is dumb. If someone doesn't want to take your money because of whatever reason, then that's them missing out on money. Money is money no matter who it comes from, it all spends the same way. But at the end of the day, if someone who owns their own business want to refuse service to someone then that's their right to do so.

I completely support this ruling. The florist is Christian who believes themselves better than the non believer or blasphemer. These are the people who be shunned in society. Sure it's petty suing someone over flowers, but it's petty not selling flowers to someone who hoped to have them for one of the happiest days they will have. If Christians had their way, then homosexuals wouldn't be allowed on buses, or to drive, or to shop in certain stores. Remember when African Americans were forced to sit in the back of the bus? Or drink from separate fountains? THIS IS THE SAME THING. We can't advance as a society as long as these knucklehead believers get their way. I would feel like complete trash if I was denied a service because of who I was as a person! Christians practice what you preach!

Flowers are not guns, you cannot regulate who can and cannot get flowers. That is rediculous.

Sure this Christian flowerist is not gay himself and is just Jelly he hasn't come out of the closet to meet the man of his dreams.

If that's the case, It's probably devistating for him. SInce in such a case, He wants to be with a man so bad but can't because of his Faith.

Sometimes faith trumps love. But not in the case of discriminating against shoppers when all buisnesses are suposed to be almost like automotons.
In the world of market, people arn't allowed to enforce their personal values on people. They are not allowed to deny people their service because of alterior motives.

I think some gay couples are weird, But really. This is Justice for all humans.
A gender is only a reproductive role. That is all. Men and woman both come from the same place. Each other. Woman just put in a little extra effort growing and pushing em out. And descriminating against a shopper because of how they decide they want to reproduce ( WIthout a morally ethical way that does not hurt living organism or people) All power to the shopper to enforce their rights to not be sexually profiled.

If you chose a job which happens to be a nessisity for weddings. You knew these types of shoppers were coming. Expecially to you, This guy is either spiteful against gays. Or he must be really dense in the skull. Really thick.
You would have to thick to not put to and to together and be like oh Gee wizz. Im a flourist. I'm gunna see some gay people wanting a wedding.

Well when the time comes il just deny them. Yes that's it. I'l deny each and every one of those sinners lol. To bad the law does not feel the same way. Guess were going to have to adapt to a more tolerate society.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Ok fine, but hypothetical. Say this wasn't "just a florist" but say, everyone. An entire state for example that didn't do business with blacks. Black guy has a lot of money. He'd be homeless, hungry, couldn't even get transportation out of that state.

Then what?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

Can the state force a Muslim artist to draw a cartoon of Mohammed?