Judge Rules Against Christian Florist Who Refused to Provide Flowers for Gay Wedding

originally posted by: MotherAnimal
a reply to: NavyDoc
What an absolute faux pas. Klan rallies are strictly BYO.

Sorry. I've never been to one, so I didn't know. Mea Culpa.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
What about a Jewish deli that refused to provide brisket for a Nazi rally or a black person who refused to provide barbecue for a Klan rally?

What the people do with the product is none of the seller's business. The people at the grocery store don't ask me what I'm making with the food I'm buying. The cashiers at Home Depo don't sell to me based on what I'm going to DO with the items I buy there. As a citizen, I have the right to buy stuff. Period.

a reply to: markosity1973

You don't think there were some store owners who were pretty upset about having to serve blacks after the civil rights act was passed? There were some pretty awful attitudes during that time. While I am not convinced that racial discrimination is totally gone in America, not too many store owners think twice today about black patrons coming into their store. It wasn't always like that. We had to make the laws because people weren't being inclusive on their own. Now it's basically unheard of for any black person to use the law against someone refusing to serve them.

Make the laws, and then the attitude changes will follow. You have to give it time.

originally posted by: MotherAnimal
Who would've thought, a florist who didn't like gay men.

AH ha ha ha!! THAT was great!!

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: NavyDoc
What about a Jewish deli that refused to provide brisket for a Nazi rally or a black person who refused to provide barbecue for a Klan rally?

What the people do with the product is none of the seller's business. The people at the grocery store don't ask me what I'm making with the food I'm buying. The cashiers at Home Depo don't sell to me based on what I'm going to DO with the items I buy there. As a citizen, I have the right to buy stuff. Period.

You don't have the right to buy anything. What you have the right to do is engage in mutually acceptable and beneficial exchange of goods and services. I don't have the right to come into your house and demand that you sell me the computer you are typing on, for example.

Here we go again.

First off know/learn the difference between personal rights/liberties and that of a business owner.

If your state has non-discriminary laws that include sexual orientation ------ whatever your business is ------ you are required to provide that service to all customers, period!

Refusal of service does not apply to sexual orientation.

a reply to: Metallicus
No you are wrong. If the law (as you quoted) states that discrimination is against the law when providing goods or services then you do not engage in a business that provides goods within the framework of that law if you cannot abide by it. It is your choice, no one has forced the florist AFTER they became a florist to go against their beliefs.

If, however, the law against discrimination came into force AFTER they started a business as a florist then they are within their moral rights to refuse service.

You cannot bleat on about your moral code and beliefs if you know what the law is beforehand.

originally posted by: HUMBLEONE

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: HUMBLEONE
WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? WHAT IF JESUS WAS GAY?

What if the moon was made of cheese?

You could make a whole bunch of Martian macaroni and cheese. Do you think Christians would eat it?

If you could convince them God made the macaroni cheese then probably.
Jim Jones convinced his followers to drink poison.

From where I sit, the florist is the one who forced the issue, made it an issue, so I figure that the consequences go with that territory. Why not just say sorry we're booked that day or something and just step off?

I mean, seriously, who gives a flying fig what someone's beliefs are, particularly someone in business. But aside from getting the damn courts involved, the bright side of this is that same sex couples will know to stay away.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
From where I sit, the florist is the one who forced the issue, made it an issue, so I figure that the consequences go with that territory. Why not just say sorry we're booked that day or something and just step off?

I mean, seriously, who gives a flying fig what someone's beliefs are, particularly someone in business. But aside from getting the damn courts involved, the bright side of this is that same sex couples will know to stay away.

If gay marriage gets approved where I am at, I am seriously thinking on investing in a gay-friendly flower/cake/photography shop that will advertise quite clearly "Gay friendly--WE WANT YOUR BUSINESS!" Part of the marketplace is filling demands that are not met. I should turn a profit.

It has nothing to do with their attitude but protecting peoples rights and avoiding forced segregation and a new type of Jim Crow. To all you saying, they should be allowed to not serve gays, how about blacks, women, transgendered, ect.

Is a No Gays Allowed sign acceptable to you? How about No Blacks allowed? No Women allowed?

Should we start having straight only bathrooms? Water fountains? How about schools? Should gays go to the back of the bus? Give up their seat to straight folk?

Do you not see how this is wrong? Do you really want to go back to those days?

The one woman can be as prejudiced and disapproving as she wants in her daily life that's not the issue. I don't care if she thinks gays are the devil themselves. She still has to sell to them if she wants to run a place of business, and that's how it should be.

Going back to ye olden times of prejudice and segregation is a terrible option.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

Make the laws, and then the attitude changes will follow. You have to give it time.

Refusing service to anyone is no way to run a business, I know because I run one myself. I in no way support what the florist lady did.

However, the gay couple had 2 options;

To act like a victim, cry poor me and get the law involved.

OR

To see the florist for who she is; an ignorant fool, walk out the door (after maybe expressing freedom of speech and telling her what was thought of her) and going to another service provider.

Sometimes people get too fixated on the principle and lose sight of the bigger picture. Now the wedding day will as much about the drama with the flowers as it will be the underlying happy occasion of two people making a lifelong commitment to one another.

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: markosity1973
I just think f#$@ you and go elsewhere with my money.

I totally understand your position and I would probably do the same thing. But there are small towns ALL OVER this country that only have one florist or one bakery. I live in such a town. Not everyone can go down the block to the next florist. What should these people do? I ask that question in EVERY one of these threads and have never gotten an answer.

I grew up in a small town in NZ. I lived there with my first ever partner, we got treated like this all the time.

Quite simply, we got in our car and drove to the next town where we did get the service we wanted. Yes, it's an issue and it is largely why so many gay people end up in the cities.

This sort of change is a generational thing though. It's getting easier as the years roll by. In that very same town I grew up and lived in 23 years ago there is now a gay owned and run cafe that proudly flies the rainbow flag. We now have Asians running bakeries (yep, this town was so isolated it was 99% Europeans and Maori folk living there)

I equate this to the discrimination of my disabled mother. That was in the 50s, before the disability act.

Yes, we were refused service and kicked out of businesses. For insurance reasons, for upsetting other customers etc.

Fine, you and your partner can just jump in a car and go someplace else.

If you have a disability, can you even drive a car, then there's access (are there stairs?), is parking too far to walk?, etc.

So No --- I do not agree it's OK to just find someone else. A business provides a service. That service is required by law to serve every customer the same.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
I don't have the right to come into your house and demand that you sell me the computer you are typing on, for example.

Read Annee's post above. www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: NavyDoc

I went to a store the other week after a long, long day at work to pick something up for my son. When my card wouldn't take on the store's crappy machine, I said, "Goddamnit."

The person behind the counter GASPED and said I find that very offensive and i'm a good Christian man and I would prefer you not speak to me that way in my store. Lordy, lordy, you'da thunk lighting was about to strike us all and the earth was about to open up and send me straight to hell.

So I just calmy looked at him and asked, what? I wasn't speaking to you, I was speaking to god and to the machine not you so stuff your offense. LOL that made his sputtering even worse. So then I just calmly again said, do you want my non-Christian money or shall I just leave?

You know the answer. I left anyway.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: NavyDoc
I don't have the right to come into your house and demand that you sell me the computer you are typing on, for example.

Read Annee's post above. www.abovetopsecret.com...

I did. She's wrong. You don't forego rights just because you own a business.


The law is the law and one could say that common sense tells you not to run afoul of the law but that does not mean that the law is just, does not violate one's rights, nor is applied equitably.

originally posted by: markosity1973
However, the gay couple had 2 options;

To act like a victim, cry poor me and get the law involved.

I don't think they're crying "poor me'. More likely, they're sick and tired of people treating them as though they're second class citizens and they're not going to "just take it" anymore. Maybe this doesn't bother you and that's fine. But if my local store said they weren't going to serve me because of who I have sex with, or who I'm married too, I'd get the law involved, too. I have the right to public accommodations and not to have to drive 3 hours to find someone who isn't a bigot to sell me some freakling flowers.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: NavyDoc

I went to a store the other week after a long, long day at work to pick something up for my son. When my card wouldn't take on the store's crappy machine, I said, "Goddamnit."

The person behind the counter GASPED and said I find that very offensive and i'm a good Christian man and I would prefer you not speak to me that way in my store. Lordy, lordy, you'da thunk lighting was about to strike us all and the earth was about to open up and send me straight to hell.

So I just calmy looked at him and asked, what? I wasn't speaking to you, I was speaking to god and to the machine not you so stuff your offense. LOL that made his sputtering even worse. So then I just calmly again said, do you want my non-Christian money or shall I just leave?

You know the answer. I left anyway.

That guy wouldn't last 10 minutes in the Navy where even the chaplains cuss like, well, a sailor.

I would think that after being forced to sell arrangements to this couple, the florist would only half attempt them. After all these court shenanigans the couple is going to wind up being VERY disappointed with the arrangements lol

If they were smart they would still seek out a different florist regardless of the courts decision. People will do mean things out of spite.

originally posted by: yorkshirelad

If, however, the law against discrimination came into force AFTER they started a business as a florist then they are within their moral rights to refuse service.

You cannot bleat on about your moral code and beliefs if you know what the law is beforehand.

Not in the US.

We just had a case like that involving a wedding business.