Can we quit the BS? Stop defending extremist action

originally posted by: markosity1973

We have Asian refugees here in Australia - for example Vietnamese people fled persecution after the war ended there.

They couldn't speak English, they had crap jobs and they also had children. You still sometimes meet them with the little kid who speaks english and does all the translating for them.

What becomes of them? Well their kids are bright, they are grateful for the country they call home and most importantly, they are 100% integrated. When I see an Asian person with an Aussie accent, I don't think of them as Asian. Nope, they are 100% Aussie, more Australian than I am even, due to the fact I too am an immigrant from NZ..

I meet Muslim people in the same scenario and they are all too happy to play the victim. Crying 'we are marginalised' 'we are persecuted' ''We need better rights and protectrions'

Sorry Muslims, if people from other non Muslim countries can 100% integrate within a single generation, then you need to grow up and do the same.

I recognize what you're saying. I am an immigrant here, in a sense, and I make huge effort to integrate- to learn the language, the values, and be an active part of the community. I see asians that do the same here, and the arabs just don't.

I mean, the first generation ones tried to, and were less successful. That is where their kids seemed to turn their back on them- because they were, as I put it, the losers.

But Islam is not the cause, I don't think. Because many of these arab immigrants are not even muslim!
But they still have cultural differences that clash here. One of my coworkers was born here, but his parents came over from Algeria. They are not, and have never been, muslim. They did not speak any arabic with their kids, their kids never learned it.

And yet,
his behavior is exactly like that of the other arabic speaking muslims around us, in that he is lazy. (My word). He walks super slowly, he spends most of his day going around talking with people, and leaving his work untouched. He's a nice guy, but it drives me insane. In trying to talk with him about it he simply says it gives others an opportunity to correct him or push him, and he likes that.

What I've been able to ascertain is that part of their culture is very highly social- even more than the french (who seem so in contrast to americans) to the point that they cannot get motivated to do anything without the stimulus of someone else pushing them to. Everything is about reacting to others, never in response to the self, or their own goals. That means they don't develop self discipline at all.

(This is why I cannot agree with the new age extremists who go on about killing the ego, you kill the ego, you end up like them, with no individual driving force.)

It takes an arab ten minutes to walk ten feet across the floor, I swear.

This is likely to be provocative, for those who hate stereotyping , but some stereotypes are based on things that are true in the majority of the population referred to.

I am not sure that this "selflessness" or underdeveloped individuality comes from Islam, but in any case, it is a deep cultural conditioning, which handicaps them in a society that depends upon people motivating and disciplining themselves, without any other person holding a carrot or stick for them.

(The asians don't have that problem- self discipline is usually well developed in their culture. )

Islam is an answer to that problem. Allah becomes the one with the stick or carrot, and because he remains immaterial, he can be integrated into the psychology and in a sense, be with them even when alone. (one of the reasons I suspect it is undesirable for them to attach an image to him). The only time I see the arabs close to me motivate themselves to do or not do anything is when it is something dictated by Allah- then their feet start moving.

Um... sorry to go on so long again. I am talking to myself more than anything, sorting out what I have observed and understood. Cultural conditioning sometimes goes deeper than religion even. I think there is a reason they have more trouble integrating western cultures, even when they TRY to.

a reply to: defcon5
Ya huh. More Protestants-are-innocent crap. Always blame the Catholics.

You are completely ignoring the fact that not every muslim is a wahhabiist. Most of them arent, just the death cults of isis and saudi arabia and the like.

a reply to: Bluesma

Interesting post.....

What you are attempting to describe is a tribal mentality. There are other races here downunder who present very similarly to what you have portrayed and they are neither Christian nor Muslim. I don't want to get into this deeply as it is a sensitive subject that can easily cause offence which could derail the bigger argument.

Further to prove my point about Islam, we have the world's most populous Muslim nation right above us here in Australia - Indonesia. And yes, it's an Asian country.

Just ask any Australian about the Bali bombings and it will be a painful memory of an Islam attack in an Asian nation, by Asian perpertrators.

Asia in general is a kaleidoscope of religions and cultures. Every single nationality integrates well with Australia, except the Indonesian Muslims. They hate on us just like every other nationality of Islam does for being free and western.

Just recently Indonesia declared that the biggest threat to their nation was.... US in Aussie. It is not a well known fact, but we pay the Indonesian government what amounts to ransom money to stay out of the top end of our country.

Islam, or to be more specific sharia law is violent. People rejoice when they stone a sinner because it is what they believe Allah wants. They beat their wives - an Australian Immam gave a sermon on how to beat your wife - not to a pulp, but hitting her to say 'wake up woman' is okay in Allah's opinion according to him.

I'm sorry, I disagree that race is to blame. It may provide some tendencies, but the religion is the guiding light that justifies these horrific crimes.

originally posted by: stosh64


A serious question to all.

Seeing as most of the cartoons are in French I am a little ignorant on the subject.

It was my understanding that the cartoons were NOT aimed at all Muslims, but more so directed at the extremists.

As I understand their cartoons were satire against the extremists using Mohamed to get their point across.

To point out the absurdity of the extremist beliefs.

IF this is the case why are the 'moderate Muslims' offended?

Am I way off thinking this way?

Because it is forbidden, in their religion, to make any sort of image of Allah. It doesn't matter how you depict him, or in what intent- it is the projection of Allah in some sort of form that is the problem.

Allah is supposed to remain formless in the mind, which enhances the ability for each to integrate the concept into their psychology. When a form or image is associated, it becomes something the mind can look at as object, or "other" separate from the self. If you will, it is a concept meant to stand in the place of a self. To dictate intent and action.

Trying to find an example of something similar us westerners can grasp, our Constitutional Rights, are meant to remain a concept and group of ideals we integrate not just as a piece of paper a group of humans wrote down, but as something higher, non-material, non-physical, which we integrate and worship, and which unites us as "americans".

We don't have any strict rules against it, but a majority of americans are provoked to strong feelings by the suggestion that the Constitution is "just" a piece of paper, written by some dudes that had their own personal issues in a specific time, and doesn't have much more meaning than that.

originally posted by: markosity1973

What you are attempting to describe is a tribal mentality.

Okay, if that is the word you use. I call it "social", (as opposed to "individualist") and see that cultures can value it anywhere on a continuum.

There are other races here downunder who present very similarly to what you have portrayed and they are neither Christian nor Muslim.

That would support my hypothesis that it doesn't find it source in the religion. But rather, highly societal (tribal) cultures may use religions (of many sorts) to motivate, increase solidarity and collective intent.
I would bet the people you refer to have their own shared belief system? I know the aboriginals do- my parents lived there several years and found their beliefs rather interesting and complex...

Further to prove my point about Islam, we have the world's most populous Muslim nation right above us here in Australia - Indonesia. And yes, it's an Asian country.

We have been referring to "asians" too broadly, I admit. As people do when they refer to "Europeans" which englobes a wide variety of cultures.... I have been most familiar with Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese... all seeming to somewhat different on the continuum of social and individualist tendencies. I would not be surprised if other Asian societies are even more different!

I'm sorry, I disagree that race is to blame. It may provide some tendencies, but the religion is the guiding light that justifies these horrific crimes.

There are Muslims who do not do these things and do not feel their religion supports them.
There are Christians that did not take part in actions of the KKK,the Sabra and Shatila massacre, the Crusades, the Inquisition, bringing Christianity to the New World (and wiping out huge populations in order to do it).

Religions can be interpretted and used in any way possible, to motivate and move masses, for good or for bad, destrucively or constructively.

originally posted by: skunkape23

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: skunkape23

There are so many wonderful Muslims!

That doesn't mean there isn't a big problem. Islam hasn't grown up with the rest of the world.

Baby got back.
Sorry, I had to.

Ahh damnit bro now she's getting stoned for flaunting around showing all that skin and turning on westerners.. why did you have to go there?

You American's, shame on you for causing all this violence that's being carried out by muslims. Shame.

originally posted by: Puppylove
The problem is much of the cultural traits you are talking about has nothing really to do with islam itself. Is middle eastern culture in general. That's the middle east, not Islam.

Wait those aren't the same thing? Well I'll be damned folks, I'm not religiously intolerant, I guess I just hate middle eastern people (sarcasm, neither are true). Which of these counties doesn't have Islam as the religion (officialy or by majority)? Why do all these Jihadists get it wrong, they think it's Islam's name they are killing in, someone needs a new slogan..

originally posted by: Bluesma

Religions can be interpretted and used in any way possible, to motivate and move masses, for good or for bad, destrucively or constructively.

Christianity has moved on for the most part from violence. Yes, the Romans adopted it and brought christianity to many parts of the world by the sword. I'll admit that.

However,

How do you explain away countries like the Phillipines where the great majority of the country is peaceful and predominantly catholic. Then you have an Islam minority who are well known for being violent trouble makers.

Sri Lanka has the same issue - violent Islamists vs buddhists.

India before Pakistan spilt off - Muslims wanted their own 'homeland' My great Aunt was a teacher in a christian in what is now known as the kashmir region when India gained it's independence. (she even met Ghandi) She used to tell me how violent the Muslims were toward the Hindus until they started to fight back.

In the Isis controlled territory they are taking great delight in slaughtering the christian minorities there. Something that sickens me to my core.

Same thing in Nigeria. And Rwanda. And East Timor. The Cote D'Ivoire narrowly missed out on yet another masssacre at the hands of Islam thanks to the mysterious Marian apparition that occured there.

All I see is a common thread in the world's troubles - Islam.

originally posted by: markosity1973
Chirstianity has moved on for the most part from violence.

We agree on that. Christianity is in a different stage of it's development.

How do you explain away countries like the Phillipines where the great majority of the country is peaceful and predominantly catholic.

I do not know, I don't know much about the Phillipinos. What is their culture like? Are they highly social too? And do they successfully integrate other cultures easily when they immigrate?

All I see is a common thread in the world's troubles - Islam.

I think you are leading away from what I had said and I am getting confused here.
I was responding to the idea that people who want to live in Sharia law should simply stay in countries which practice it, and not immigrate out.
I was pointing out that some problems are involved in that because many of the people who left it don't want to bring it here, and attempted to integrate, but were unsuccessful.
That those who want to bring it here are not born in those other countries, and in many cases, have never actually lived under it.

I am 100% with you on the concept that Islam is having it's global invasion stage, like Christianity once did. I think it is recruiting more followers every day, just as the Crusades made knights.

I looked at how we might do something to stop these people from being attracted to and recruited into those numbers- and finding out what attracts them, and why, would be essential to determining that.
Why their parents weren't able to be successful in their countries of adoption, even when not muslim, is a factor to consider.

But it seems like you are going into another facet- simply trying to determine who is good and who is bad?
That doesn't interest me too much, I am more concerned about what to do in my current environment.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I do not know, I don't know much about the Phillipinos. What is their culture like? Are they highly social too? And do they successfully integrate other cultures easily when they immigrate?

I've met plenty of catholic fillipinos - they are extremely suited to our societies here in Aus and NZ. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that they would have one of the easiest times adjusting to our society as many of them speak english too.

I think you are leading away from what I had said and I am getting confused here.
I was responding to the idea that people who want to live in Sharia law should simply stay in countries which practice it, and not immigrate out.
I was pointing out that some problems are involved in that because many of the people who left it don't want to bring it here, and attempted to integrate, but were unsuccessful.
That those who want to bring it here are not born in those other countries, and in many cases, have never actually lived under it.

We are on the same page when you put it that way.

I am 100% with you on the concept that Islam is having it's global invasion stage, like Christianity once did. I think it si recruiting more followers every day, just as the Crusades made knights.

I looked at how we might do something to stop these people from being attracted to and recruited into those numbers- and finding out what attracts them and why would be essential to determining that.
Why their parents weren't able to be successful in their countries of adoption, even when not muslim, is an factor to consider.

Quite simply as you have stated, there is a cultural divide that they can't seem to bridge. Islam then gives them a fallback with which to identify with. However Islam is leading them to act violently in retaliation

But it seems like you are going into another facet- simply trying to condemn who is good and who is bad?
That doesn't interest me too much, I am more concerned about what to do in my current environment.

No, I am not trying to pass judgement here, more trying to show a pattern from the facts.

I have met some great Muslim people in my time, but those same people are doing nothing at all to stand up against the insurgence. In fact they quietly rejoice, because just as christianity is, Islam is an expansive religion and they look forward to the day when Islam is the predominant religion.

originally posted by: spy66
Why cant we be the intelligent People in this crowd?

We know that these People dont like that we make fun of their God. So why is it so damn important to us to haras them about it?

- Why is it so important for us to provoke their intolerance for this?

- We claim Our righ to make them angry by harasment. We wont allow them to reakt accordingly, but to be restrained. They have warned us many times in advance about what would happen if we dont respect their God and religion. Its not like we werent warned.

Are we really this stupid. Why cant we begin to learn from Our mistakes rather than making a even bigger mess and get even more People killed.

I don't like you posting on this board, no, using the Internet at all. I'm telling you now calmly so that you don't do it again. It makes me so mad that if I see it again I'm going to kill you (not a real threat, making a point in a totally hypothetical realm). You do this again it will not only upset me greatly, but will disrespect me and enrage me. I hope you just respect me like an adult and stop doing this, if I have to kill you (again, I'm not threatening anyone here) it will be your fault that you could not respect what I want you to do.

Come on bro, I don't give a # WHAT other people don't like when it's an unreasonable thing to ask. Don't make fun of me, that's what they are saying. Sure, it's religion but that makes no difference. Bending over and saying "now that you're killing us, ok we will stop" is giving up our very identity as people of freedom, civilization and morality. We would support further terorism because it worked for those animals, and the world would be bowing down to a bully. You are being a coward right now, and I am embarrassed just how much you're lacking a spine.

originally posted by: markosity1973

I've met plenty of catholic fillipinos - they are extremely suited to our societies here in Aus and NZ. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that they would have one of the easiest times adjusting to our society as many of them speak english too.

So... their offspring born in other countries are also being heavily recruited into Jihadism?
That does bring up some major holes in my perception then...

Could there be another reason they are turning their backs on their parents and looking elsewhere for a different belief system?

No, I am not trying to pass judgement here, more trying to show a pattern from the facts.

I have met some great Muslim people in my time, but those same people are doing nothing at all to stand up against the insurgence. In fact they quietly rejoice, because just as christianity is, Islam is an expansive religion and they look forward to the day when Islam is the predominant religion.

I guess we have had very different experiences. I am close to many muslim people who are horrified by this, because they have gained the french perception of religion as an internal personal thing (Laicism) while the sense of belongingness comes from the french society.

I also interact with more women than men muslims, and they don't have the same desire for "conquest". Their religion gives them a sense of discipline and ritual that is comforting and that is all they want. They abhor the violence.
On the other hand, they are very easily afraid for their childrens lives, which gives the extremists a way to manipulate or repress them...

originally posted by: Bluesma
So... their offspring born in other countries are also being heavily recruited into Jihadism?
That does bring up some major holes in my perception then...

Could there be another reason they are turning their backs on their parents and looking elsewhere for a different belief system?

No, Christians tend to stay Christian or stray away into agnosticism / Atheism / New age.

There are however many 'rebels without a cause' that are attracted to Islam and Isis. There are more than a few white Australians whom have converted to Islam and escaped overseas to fight in these wars.

I guess we have had very different experiences. I am close to many muslim people who are horrified by this, because they have gained the french perception of religion as an internal personal thing (Laicism) while the sense of belongingness comes from the french society.

I also interact with more women than men muslims, and they don't have the same desire for "conquest". Their religion gives them a sense of discipline and ritual that is comforting and that is all they want. They abhor the violence.
On the other hand, they are very easily afraid for their childrens lives, which gives the extremists a way to manipulate or repress them...

The Muslims I know just go quiet and don't want to talk about it. That makes me uneasy because they are supporting the Jihadists by proxy.

I've been to France several times and experienced the culture. Australia is not too far off from it in that we share a sense of brotherhood, liberty and equality. The main difference is that our colloquial culture is more crass and we have huge geographical distances in our nation betwen our major cities.

originally posted by: Domo1
I think almost any sane person would agree that there is a marked difference between a Muslim and a terrorist.

I just read a thread that I won't link that irritated me, and want to say a few things.

If you have a problem with free speech, don't come to a Western country that embraces it. Stay in your country. If you grow up in a Western country, and have a problem with free speech, move to a country that embraces hanging journalists and pray 5 times a day that your daughter won't get raped because she's not Muslim enough, and then stoned to death for getting raped. Move to a place where women can't drive. Move to a place where people are killed for witchcraft. Have fun tiptoeing around and always saying the right thing because there are so many factions that will kill you for any perceived slight.

Of course there are good, kind, wonderful Muslims in the world. I'm not going to guess at the percentage. All I know is that predominately Muslim countries act like they're in the stone age regarding human rights, and that there are far too many transplants into Western society that would like to see that kind of filth take over the world. If you hate the country you live in, MOVE. Just move. Western countries should happily buy tickets on the condition these people don't return.

Why the mass exodus from Muslim countries? Why come to the US? Or France? Or UK? If things are so good in Muslim countries that rule by religious law (that you support), why come to our countries and expect us to change, and placate to your beliefs?

This thread on Reddit paints a very good picture and I hope everyone saves it.

The creepy PC conditioning is getting to me. This isn't hate speech. It's real speech. It needs to be addressed. I have no problem calling a Muslim my brother, unless he is incapable of recognizing Islam is a HUGE problem at the moment.

Your question of why move to a western country. Simple...invade and spread your agenda. Basically a war without the weapons.

originally posted by: markosity1973

No, Christians tend to stay Christian or stray away into agnosticism / Atheism / New age.

There are however many 'rebels without a cause' that are attracted to Islam and Isis. There are more than a few white Australians whom have converted to Islam and escaped overseas to fight in these wars.

Okay, so it would be interesting to look at if those being seduced into Jihadism come from families who are successful in their country of residence, with a relatively high social status.

I don't know if that would invalidate my perceptions of the particular situation in France though.

The Muslims I know just go quiet and don't want to talk about it. That makes me uneasy because they are supporting the Jihadists by proxy.

Okay. We're talking about it here. Many of the Muslims are very afraid of being condemned along with the extremists, so they do express their rejection of these acts. But they don't get active about it, which is the topic of controversy. I have asked the ones I know why they didn't take part in the protests, though they express a personal stance against these acts- and their response is that they are afraid. They live in ghettos that are often police no-go zones, where the young muslims reign violently, and feel they might be targetted if they make their stance visible.

originally posted by: Domo1
I think almost any sane person would agree that there is a marked difference between a Muslim and a terrorist.

No they wouldn't. The question has been, is and should be what is the difference between killer Muslims and non-killer Muslims.

The real question....should western nations deport radical clerics that breath out hate against the cultures they live in? Should Muslim organizations, say in the US, that are known to recruit and send folks over to join ISIS be shut down?

originally posted by: Bluesma

Okay. We're talking about it here. Many of the Muslims are very afraid of being condemned along with the extremists, so they do express their rejection of these acts. But they don't get active about it, which is the topic of controversy. I have asked the ones I know why they didn't take part in the protests, though they express a personal stance against these acts- and their response is that they are afraid. They live in ghettos that are often police no-go zones, where the young muslims reign violently, and feel they might be targetted if they make their stance visible.

And there we have it.

Why were these Muslim ghettos ever allowed to form in the first place?

Why are there parts of France, a sovereign nation seemingly living by their own law and rule? Is it one law for everyone of the land or not?

Why is the government not stepping in NOW and intervening in these places to reintegrate them with wider french society?

The Jews were forced into ghettos. The Muslims are there of their own choice it would seem.

The danger lies in reforming religion . IS is doing that right now they take a part of the Koran to use that for their own purpose . The Koran says that you don't kill Muslims only when the court has decided.

So now you see it that also mass executions taken place by IS beheading Muslim men and woman . Not having any form of Legal counselling. Also Muslims that think that joining a group like IS think is heroic because they think are the ones who we the west are blaming them for everything should look further then that. Because once they join IS they and see the reel horror going on , you have to know there's no turning back to the peaceful life you lived in the western countries. Because IS will grotesquely execute you.

Their many peaceful Muslim countries living and trading in good peace with west with allot of very fine and kind Muslim people

I can't hardly believe that if you're a good raised Muslim you want to join something like IS. Don't forget that it's all about Oil and money.

Right now IS is growing because they extort farmers , merchant's , market stalls and sell oil below the regular prices in countries like Irak and Syria to buy heavy and medium weapons. So they are going to be a real threat that isn't to stop that easily.

But the freedom of speech and making money on a democratic way are the only way to set up a peaceful relationship between every religious and non religious being on this earth..

Remember every war has started by politicians and dictators who think they are above every religion and want to rule and fear the people of our beautiful planet called earth with many great human beings.

Peace

a reply to: Domo1

Truthfully, I don't know how many Muslims secretly support extremists to one extent or another but I don't think this is a Muslim only problem. It's pretty common for humans to push their lifestyle and choices as superior, I know we have plenty of people here in the US who quietly support concepts like defining marriage as between 1 man and 1 woman even though they would never speak up about it in their day to day lives. There's many who I suspect support WBC as well.

Where I draw the line though isn't on silent support but rather on who is willing to stand up and take violent actions to get their way. Most supporters are passive, and while they may not oppose something the rest of us see as undesirable they aren't going to try and overthrow society to make it happen.

originally posted by: markosity1973
And there we have it.

Why were these Muslim ghettos ever allowed to form in the first place?

Why are there parts of France, a sovereign nation seemingly living by their own law and rule? Is it one law for everyone of the land or not?

Why is the government not stepping in NOW and intervening in these places to reintegrate them with wider french society?

The Jews were forced into ghettos. The Muslims are there of their own choice it would seem.

well, yeah.... that goes without saying, I thought. I have ranted and raved on these boards for a few years about the situation here, in which laxism is breeding racism. LIke I said, these young people look to come up against resistence, and find none. The cops are ordered not to stop arabs in crime, because it causes uproar from the arab communties (cars burn, things get violent...) . Some of our friends are police, so I know this is true.

They are SOO concerned about being perceived as Racist, they are afraid to do anything. LIke I explained in another thread, the french of the age 50 and up still carry a heavy memory of their participation in deporting people to concentration camps (as in the events of Vel D'Hiv, that they are terribly afraid of reliving the same mistake.

The parents, (the actual immigrants) like I said, do not have much ambition- they are happy to have a roof over their heads and food to eat, they don't try to do more, and they have cultural behaviorisms which makes it almost impossible to move up in this society. (like that laziness I described, and lack of autonomy).

So yes, I described that their situation is of their own creation, and as their children see that, and see that there is no resistance by the authorities, do not choose to do the same as their as their peaceful muslim immigrant parents.

To repeat my "prediction" for the near future-
The next generation reaching 50 now is angry. They don't carry much, if any memory or guilt about the french cooperation with the Nazi's, and they will be coming into power now. They have been the ones being victimized all this time, while the authorities have been nervously wringing their hands and repeating, we mustn't be racist, we mustn't do anything....

The Front National is seeing it's chances of winning the next Presidential election grow rapidly- and they propose to ship all immigrants out of the country.

I can't help but contemplate a bit the details of how such a thing could be undertaken with intelligence- partly because I am an immigrant. My children are half american. I have done all I could to adapt and integrate, and they were born here and have very little knowledge of the US. We have been successful and constructive here. But we will be deported if this is put into effect.

So you all rant about extreme methods and simplified solutions, it makes no difference to you. I am too close to not look at the details.