Can we quit the BS? Stop defending extremist action

what came first the terrorist or the rape and pillaging of the poor countrys.

No way man there just jealous of our democracy lol.

originally posted by: defcon5

Those are very small number of weapons that came from the CIA involvement in the Afghanistan war, and far more were taken from soviet soldiers. AK47's are manufactured in Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Ethiopia, Nigeria, and Pakistan to name a few places. So the majority of those weapons come from their own factories in their own countries, or those of the neighboring allies.

But it (among many other examples) nonetheless establishes a precedent for covert meddling. Manufacturing. Behind-the-scenes manipulation and trickery.

Why shouldn't we assume it hasn't stopped? What reason do we have to believe that it isn't business as usual?

a reply to: NthOther
Because this crap has been going on since long before the US even existed. This is nothing new over there, its just now as the world is getting smaller, we are more directly involved in it, and hear more of these events.

a reply to: spy66

- Why is it so important for us to provoke their intolerance for this? - We claim Our righ to make them angry by harasment. We wont allow them to reakt accordingly, but to be restrained. They have warned us many times in advance about what would happen if we dont respect their God and religion. Its not like we werent warned.

i am struggling here with your statement...please tell me....if i was harassing your sister and calling her a fat pig and you warned me stop of there will be consequences and i kept going so you came to my house broke in and killed my family you would feel justified based on the prior warning ?

a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Oh ha, el oh el.

Every race and religion is guilty. The problem is Islam refuses to join the rest of the world and is very far behind.

Are you a Muslim? Walk down any Western country's streets and be treated with at most a cold glance. Are you not obviously Muslim? Walk down any street in a predominately Muslim country and get beheaded.

There is a huge difference and it needs to be talked about, not swept under the rug because it sounds rude.

Not all of Islam is a problem, but a big part of it is. Real Muslims need to step up and realize it, and so do governments and people across the globe.

originally posted by: Domo1

Why the mass exodus from Muslim countries? Why come to the US? Or France? Or UK? If things are so good in Muslim countries that rule by religious law (that you support), why come to our countries and expect us to change, and placate to your beliefs?

Well, I share the sentiment, basically, but have had to recognize that the situation cannot be summed up so simply.
In France, we have muslims who were NOT okay with the way of life and law in the middle east, so they left.
What happened is that they continued to live normal lives and have children. Then the children grew up in France, but feeling different, because their parents couldn't speak french very well, and didn't live like the french, so they grew up with identity issues, not sure what they are part of. Not having ever been to the middle east, the homeland their parents speak of becomes idealized in their mind, like a mythical land.

They see their mom spoken to like a small child by their teachers, because she can't speak french or write it. They see their father working some very low status manual type job (which he was quite happy to have, and has no ambition for more, as it is already allowing him to live better than he ever dreamed he could in his country of origin), and they struggle with their feelings about their cultural origin.

This internal conflict (am I french, or am I arab?) grows as they reach adolescence. They become "rebels without a cause" challenging the authorities and laws, trying to come up against limits... but the french are so worried about being accused of racism, none appear. No opposition, nothing that constrains and protects. Even their parents become afraid of them, as the kids have a sense of individualism they have no idea what to do with, and even more education than they do.

Many of the parents are dependent upon their kids, as they need them to translate for them, or to drive the mother to the grocery store. So these troubled teens have a huge amount of power, not only outside, but in the home.

So then walks in the recruiters for Islam, representatives from that mythical land of their ancestors, with all the secrets of who they are and from where they come! With the promise of a feeling of belonging, and a chance to be a hero for God, and to right all the wrongness they feel inside. A chance to be known and heard of world wide, and gain a sense of confidence and duty, through learning powerful skills and the manipulation of weapons. A chance to experience boundary and limit, discipline, which will hold them close and make them feel they are a part of something bigger than their self.....

The rebel then has a cause. And ultimately, staying back in the land of their ancestors isn't quite as enticing as all that since they were born in the western world and feel foreign there. So they buy into the dream of bringing peace to earth, via a few big booms, and bringing the religion to their country (France). The idea of integrating the two worlds- the one they were born and raised in, and the mythical mecca, is too inspiring to ignore!

That was long. Sorry. I was delving right into the mentality of the second generation arab immigrants here, who are the biggest threat. Just telling them to go home sounds easy, but they are home.

If we decide to just throw them out, and send them home, how far back do we go in deciding that? One generation? Two? Three?

ETA- this is not to excuse terrorism- it is simply to point out that finding solutions isn't as easy as that. There is more to the situation to deal with.

a reply to: Domo1



Cheers brother!!

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: spy66

- Why is it so important for us to provoke their intolerance for this? - We claim Our righ to make them angry by harasment. We wont allow them to reakt accordingly, but to be restrained. They have warned us many times in advance about what would happen if we dont respect their God and religion. Its not like we werent warned.

i am struggling here with your statement...please tell me....if i was harassing your sister and calling her a fat pig and you warned me stop of there will be consequences and i kept going so you came to my house broke in and killed my family you would feel justified based on the prior warning ?

YOu are describing a issue that is totally different. This is about harasing someones God on purpous and without end. Not some Family member. But we should ask Our selvs if harasing kids can lead to School killing. Fight that end up With Deaths and so on. But what you are saying is that: Hey, we have the right to haras you so get over it.

originally posted by: infinityorder

originally posted by: crappiekat
a reply to: Domo1

That's the way I look at it.

They're just a little late at getting with the program.

Didn't Christianity go through it's growing and learning years?

A little late? Hundreds of years is not a little anything in the human ecperience.

The crusades were very long ago....very very long ago, the inqusition as well, and the salem witch trials.

The muslim world is stuck in the time after saladin died, they have not taken a cultural step since then, all inovation has come from the east and west.

They were at one time the pinacle of human endeavour, the seat of great thinkers, the ones innovating in the name of science and human advancement.


Wtf happened to them?

The serious answer to your question is that those nations were not Islamic during those periods of enlightenment and progress.

Islam has stifled and smothered humanism and social progress in every nation it has taken hold.

Look at the Persian Empire (Iran) or many others.

Most of the oldest and most beautiful Mosques in the world were originally Christian churches, or Jewish temples.

From Wikipedia about Constantinople:

Founded on the Sarayburnu promontory around 660 BC as Byzantium, the city now known as Istanbul developed to become one of the most significant cities in history. For nearly sixteen centuries following its reestablishment as Constantinople in 330 AD, it served as the capital of three empires: the Roman and Byzantine (330–1204 and 1261–1453), the Latin (1204–1261), and the Ottoman (1453–1922) empires.[5] It was instrumental in the advancement of Christianity during Roman and Byzantine times, before the Ottomans conquered the city in 1453 and transformed it into an Islamic stronghold and the seat of the last caliphate.[6]

The Turks fought Islam for 400years before finally falling and eventually becoming an Islamic state themselves which became the launch pad for the further spread of Islam into Europe. If Europe actually falls to Islamic rule in this century, then I suppose some of the prophecies will have come true, and strangely the Americas will be the battlefield of Armageddon.

(and I'm Agnostic lol)

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: spy66

- Why is it so important for us to provoke their intolerance for this? - We claim Our righ to make them angry by harasment. We wont allow them to reakt accordingly, but to be restrained. They have warned us many times in advance about what would happen if we dont respect their God and religion. Its not like we werent warned.

i am struggling here with your statement...please tell me....if i was harassing your sister and calling her a fat pig and you warned me stop of there will be consequences and i kept going so you came to my house broke in and killed my family you would feel justified based on the prior warning ?

YOu are describing a issue that is totally different. This is about harasing someones God on purpous and without end. Not some Family member. But we should ask Our selvs if harasing kids can lead to School killing. Fight that end up With Deaths and so on. But what you are saying is that: Hey, we have the right to haras you so get over it.

......harassment on any level for however long it goes on for does not justify killing....i am not saying harassment is acceptable i am saying it does not justify killing people for it...and the fact you seem to think it does is somewhat disturbing

in light of my previous post to you just replace the word sister with god

I have not seen anyone stick up for the extremists. People are sticking up for peaceful muslims not the crazy bastard fundie ones.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
I have not seen anyone stick up for the extremists. People are sticking up for peaceful muslims not the crazy bastard fundie ones.

Unfortunately the moderates are doing an absolutely TERRIBLE job of managing an internal problem with their faith.

Where are the moderates with the guns fighting off ISIS?

Where are they in Africa defending the innocents from Boko Haram?

Why does Al Qaeda continue to exist in Afghanistan / Pakistan?

People can try and muddy the waters by saying western religion AKA christianity is no better, but I can't remember the last time a Christian 10 year old girl was sent into a market and blown up........

Yes, we have our own problems with religion, but radical Islam is indiscriminate and evil incarnate

I take issue with the whole notion of "free speach" because people always forget about the second part to. Responsibility a responsibility to respect others in what you say, In the UK and most of Europe we actually have laws that enforce this respect. So I cannot for example legally publish racial, homophobic or sexist hate, I could not expect to write in a public domain "all N-Words are evil" with out facing some kind of legal action and quite rightly so in my view.

Now this is just my opinion, I have voiced it on other threads.

But I think as a society, in Europe, we are very good at respecting different ethnic groups, sexual ordinations diverse genders, but our increasingly secular society has very little respect for religion (all region not just Islam). The cartoons are a excellent example, we might not all realise it but to depict the prophet Mohammed in anyway is just about as Blasphemous as it gets in Islam, any Muslim, moderate or extremest, who opens up a paper and finds a picture of their holly prophets being labelled as a "terrorist" is going to get very pissed off.

We know its annoys them, we know it offends them as a cultural group that is a big part of our society (6 million of them in France alone) yet we continue to do it. Its like having a paper publish homophobic content day after day and letting them getaway with it, which would never happen because our legal system would probably shut the publication now.

Part of the way you combat extremism is to recognise why they are so pissed at us all in the first place.

Now I am in no way saying that this justifies the attacks in France or other terrorist attacks, there is a big difference between me saying that I can understand what drove them to commit such a act and me saying that this justifies a act of terrorism.

Nor am i saying that we should be restricting freedom of speech to appease religious groups, what I am saying though is that we should be responsible in how we use our freedoms to show them the same respect we show other cultural groups in society by not intentionally causing offence.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: spy66

- Why is it so important for us to provoke their intolerance for this? - We claim Our righ to make them angry by harasment. We wont allow them to reakt accordingly, but to be restrained. They have warned us many times in advance about what would happen if we dont respect their God and religion. Its not like we werent warned.

i am struggling here with your statement...please tell me....if i was harassing your sister and calling her a fat pig and you warned me stop of there will be consequences and i kept going so you came to my house broke in and killed my family you would feel justified based on the prior warning ?

YOu are describing a issue that is totally different. This is about harasing someones God on purpous and without end. Not some Family member. But we should ask Our selvs if harasing kids can lead to School killing. Fight that end up With Deaths and so on. But what you are saying is that: Hey, we have the right to haras you so get over it.

......harassment on any level for however long it goes on for does not justify killing....i am not saying harassment is acceptable i am saying it does not justify killing people for it...and the fact you seem to think it does is somewhat disturbing

in light of my previous post to you just replace the word sister with god

I agree. But when harassment does kill people we should be smart enough to let it go.

We could use some comon sence if we have any.

a reply to: Domo1

Free speech comes with responsibility.

a reply to: Domo1

Nicely said, I agree with everything you said.

a reply to: Domo1

It's kind of hard to fight ills within your own sphere when your sphere is constantly attacked from without.

There is obviously an evil force behind it all.

The governments of the West, US, Europe, UK have for a long time been inviting, appeasing, excusing, trying not to offend those of intolerant lands, religions and mindsets.

These governments have a choice, they could say no to it all.

When the possible future king of the UK proclaims that if he was in such a position he would alter the Monarchy standard of it's main aim as 'Defender of the Faith' (there were many wars about such, not least the Crusades) to ''defender of the Faiths'' it could be seen as a clear backing down, a submission by the west.

Perhaps those of stoneage mindset lands did not forget the Crusades and have taken such a submission as an invitation for invasion.

There is always the option of being as intolerant as intolerant nations themselves. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Perhaps it is some sort of international racism, the sort that accuses well meaning nations of being un Christianly racist / intolerant (of intolerant religions), as an attempt at playing the victim for the purpose of getting their own way (taking over Christian lands and culture), using the age old trick of accusing the victim.

People have to wake up to this evilness and see the reality and know the truth of the matter.

Looks like the next few decade oughta be interesting in Europe.

i am european i am christian .......they make fun of jesus and all elements of christianity all the time .....we are secular and i can take it , i am christian but only pretend, i put up a christmas tree and buy lots of crap but i dont really believe in anything except whatever the media wants me to believe, according to the media today i am charlie...but the media is a jewish monopoly run and owned by filth pushing europe to war, i pray people get smart and get organized europe needs to really clean house, those people happy with what agendas being pushed need to fight or leave.