If the universe is infinite...

originally posted by: Barcs
My personal opinion is that infinite cannot exist. It's one of those things that really makes you wonder, but I cannot fathom something that never ends or begins.

It's a reasonable question. If something is incomprehensible, does it exist? The concept of infinity is one of those things. We can label it, but never really get a full understanding of it. So in that regard, it doesn't exist except as an abstract concept.

It's difficult to even imagine what that means, UNLESS, it is infinite in the sense that it is in a loop. Think of the plane of the universe as a large sheet of paper with very slight curvature that eventually connects back to itself. It would be infinite in that sense, it never begins or ends, but it wouldn't go on forever. Some food for thought.

Yes the universe is infinate and so is everyone and everything.

originally posted by: Barcs
It's difficult to even imagine what that means, UNLESS, it is infinite in the sense that it is in a loop. Think of the plane of the universe as a large sheet of paper with very slight curvature that eventually connects back to itself. It would be infinite in that sense, it never begins or ends, but it wouldn't go on forever. Some food for thought.

Thats just not right. A loop would be a limit. I think you are confusing the concept of infinity with the symbol to represent it.
Mixed with Einsteins explanation of gravity.
Only finite objects have edges or boundaries. Infinity is boundless. No surfaces, no edges, its just pick a direction, any direction and that plane extends forever.

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: Barcs
It's difficult to even imagine what that means, UNLESS, it is infinite in the sense that it is in a loop. Think of the plane of the universe as a large sheet of paper with very slight curvature that eventually connects back to itself. It would be infinite in that sense, it never begins or ends, but it wouldn't go on forever. Some food for thought.

Thats just not right. A loop would be a limit. I think you are confusing the concept of infinity with the symbol to represent it.
Mixed with Einsteins explanation of gravity.
Only finite objects have edges or boundaries. Infinity is boundless. No surfaces, no edges, its just pick a direction, any direction and that plane extends forever.

Correct. That's why I mentioned it in a different sense. It may have the appearance of infinity but not actually be infinite. You could literally travel forever if you went straight, but would actually be looping instead even if you don't realize it, like driving on a road that has a very slight left curve that is almost impossible to see. It will inevitably be a circle if the course stays the same. Pure speculation though, on my part, I admit.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: Barcs
It's difficult to even imagine what that means, UNLESS, it is infinite in the sense that it is in a loop. Think of the plane of the universe as a large sheet of paper with very slight curvature that eventually connects back to itself. It would be infinite in that sense, it never begins or ends, but it wouldn't go on forever. Some food for thought.

Thats just not right. A loop would be a limit. I think you are confusing the concept of infinity with the symbol to represent it.
Mixed with Einsteins explanation of gravity.
Only finite objects have edges or boundaries. Infinity is boundless. No surfaces, no edges, its just pick a direction, any direction and that plane extends forever.

Correct. That's why I mentioned it in a different sense. It may have the appearance of infinity but not actually be infinite. You could literally travel forever if you went straight, but would actually be looping instead even if you don't realize it, like driving on a road that has a very slight left curve that is almost impossible to see. It will inevitably be a circle if the course stays the same. Pure speculation though, on my part, I admit.

If the turn had a ratio of lets say 1.61803398875(the golden ration) then it would be a spiral that expands forever. In an eye pleasing way, lol.

But an infinty that just appears to be infinity isnt really infinity at all, just an imitation.
With true infinity, you can travel in a straight line forever and you will never see the same point twice, no loops, just an endless expanse of infinite distance.

This is a fun subject for me. Technically, our universe as we know it is not infinite. This is what we call the Observable Universe. The OU is a sphere with us at the center of it that is constantly expanding at the speed of light due to how fast information can get to us. However, there could be (and most likely is) a Universe beyond our OU. In this larger Universe, anything is possible, and in fact, is more than possible, it is reality. Because we can't ever observe it, everything imaginable is occurring outside the OU, similar to the classic Schrodinger's cat. Even things that seem impossible, like human-looking creatures firing lasers at planets and blowing them up, or even a god-like being creating whole worlds. Due to the physics of quantum tunneling (ie, literally anything can happen, theres just an incalculably small chance of it ever happening) everything is happening outside the universe, and an infinite number of times each!

It is commonly thought that the Universe began from a point of singularity
.... The Big Bang ... eventually filling space with stars and galaxies ...

Yet in my way of thinking ... Space was created also as a necessary medium in which the stars and galaxies could move.

In other words I believe their is an edge to the Universe ... it is finite ...
However it begs the question ... What is there beyond the Universe ... It is my assumption that there are other Universes ... perhaps alien to our own ...

In studies that map our Universe in the micro wave background there are cold spots ... where stars and galaxies have not formed ... some scientists now speculate that these areas are the borders of other Universes

I hope I have explained clearly as I am obviously not a scientist

This is a 45 minute documentary which looks into similar ideas ... for any who may be interested

www.youtube.com...

Sorry I do not know how to embed the vid

a reply to: boymonkey74

No, the universe could be infinite, but things inside would have to obey the laws of physics. I see no reason for the laws of physics to be different in a section of the universe that we cannot see than from ours. Many of the things in Star Wars break the laws of physics. Namely, the Force and loud explosions in space.

Though that doesn't present some other interesting possibilities. Namely in probability. With an infinite universe, that means that there are infinite chances for any possible probability of being true. So if we, humans, have determined that a probability can happen, then it is happening an infinite amount of times in an infinite universe. Life arising, rational thought rising, humans evolving, etc.

a reply to: caprellid

Actually the observable universe makes more of an hourglass picture than a sphere. This is due to line of sight issues from looking directly at the Milky Way.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

As I mentioned in my post, even things that are impossible as we know it are possible where we cannot observe them. For example, a phenomenon known as Quantum Tunneling is when a particle "teleports" from one location to another, due to the "probability cloud" model of matter. That is, a particle does not have a location, but rather a probable location, and the further from the center, the less likely that the particle is in that location. But even light years away, the probability is still above 0, so the atom can technically teleport based on quantum physics.

So, technically, there is a chance that an entire atom, and all its particles, could tunnel to another location, the same exact location in the same exact configuration. The chances are very low, but possible.

Zoom out a little bit, and an entire molecule could do the same thing. Zoom out some more and an entire apple could teleport over a foot in the air. The chances of this ever happening are approaching infinitely low, but still above 0. This means that all the particles needed to create a plasma beam coming out of a death star and destroying a planet would technically happen. There would be an infinitely large number of universes where this death star wouldnt work, but there would be one (technically infinite but i'm using that word a lot) where everything in star wars happens. With Harrison Ford and all.

So because quantum physics, but not standard physics, allows it, because it COULD happen, even if it is unimaginably unlikely, it HAS happened outside our frame of reference. It's fun to think about!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: caprellid

Actually the observable universe makes more of an hourglass picture than a sphere. This is due to line of sight issues from looking directly at the Milky Way.

It was more of a general statement than a practical one. if you're stuck in a box then yeah your observable universe is the size of a box and there's jedi slicing each other up right outside your box.

originally posted by: caprellid
a reply to: Krazysh0t

As I mentioned in my post, even things that are impossible as we know it are possible where we cannot observe them. For example, a phenomenon known as Quantum Tunneling is when a particle "teleports" from one location to another, due to the "probability cloud" model of matter. That is, a particle does not have a location, but rather a probable location, and the further from the center, the less likely that the particle is in that location. But even light years away, the probability is still above 0, so the atom can technically teleport based on quantum physics.

So, technically, there is a chance that an entire atom, and all its particles, could tunnel to another location, the same exact location in the same exact configuration. The chances are very low, but possible.

Zoom out a little bit, and an entire molecule could do the same thing. Zoom out some more and an entire apple could teleport over a foot in the air. The chances of this ever happening are approaching infinitely low, but still above 0. This means that all the particles needed to create a plasma beam coming out of a death star and destroying a planet would technically happen. There would be an infinitely large number of universes where this death star wouldnt work, but there would be one (technically infinite but i'm using that word a lot) where everything in star wars happens. With Harrison Ford and all.

While some science in Star Wars may be credible, that doesn't lend credence that all of the science in Star Wars is credible (for one starships don't need to be shaped like fighter jets and don't bank and weave like them) just because we are in an infinite universe. The only way for Star Wars to be true is in there are infinite universes. It reasons that an infinite universe has to follow the same uniform laws of physics. So if it isn't possible in our neck of the woods, it reasons that it isn't possible anywhere else. Are you familiar with the Cosmological principle?

It was more of a general statement than a practical one. if you're stuck in a box then yeah your observable universe is the size of a box and there's jedi slicing each other up right outside your box.

I know. If it weren't for the line of sight issues, the observable universe would look like a sphere since the earth is spherical, but we DO have the line of sight issues therefore it is more hourglass shaped.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

The issue on hand that I'm trying to address with the star wars thing is that even in our known universe, we have the same probabilities the unknown universe has. It follows all the rules, but because in an infinite universe even the most unlikely things are technically possible, they can be cranked up to 11. you could have a death star blow us up, but that's not likely. you could have a death star blow up a planet in an infinite universe, infinitely likely that it will happen.

Basically, same physics, but if everything is quantum tunneling at the same time, physics don't really apply because the situation we're imagining doesn't give them time to do anything.

a reply to: caprellid

But there are STILL limits to what can and cannot be done in the universe regardless of probability. The events of Star Wars aren't probable, they are impossible in our universe. There is no force binding us all that can be manipulated by space wizards.

originally posted by: OneManArmy
If the turn had a ratio of lets say 1.61803398875(the golden ration) then it would be a spiral that expands forever. In an eye pleasing way, lol.

Then it wouldn't be a consistent turn, it would get straighter over time. If you maintain the same bearing, no matter what it is, you will either go in an exact straight line or eventually form a circle. Golden ratio is about rate of change, is it not?

But an infinty that just appears to be infinity isnt really infinity at all, just an imitation.
With true infinity, you can travel in a straight line forever and you will never see the same point twice, no loops, just an endless expanse of infinite distance.

Agreed.