Kochs and Walmart Fight to Stop Solar Panels

a reply to: Iwinder

Yeah cloudy days will affect the performance but they make quite a few panels designed for low light areas.

Here you can see what your state ranks for RPS, taxes, rebates, exemptions. www.solarpowerrocks.com...

For me it makes sense all the way around for my next house because I am downgrading. I just do not need a big house so I am going to have quite a bit left over that if I don't do something will be taxed as capital gains. This way I can reinvest it into the house eliminate my electric bill, increase the value of the home which will be property tax exempt.

On top of that I will be out of the country quite a bit each year so most of the electric will be feeding back into the grid and I will get paid for it.

Another thing as far as your concern about scratched panel, elemental degredation. A lot of builds/most cap off the panels from the elements. Here is a good site that you can find out more. www.solarpaneltalk.com...

a reply to: deadeyedick

I plan on having a contractor put in a system where I can add on to it myself. It is all a little ways off I have to sell this house and find another by that time who knows there may be yet another breakthrough.

With the convertor I will have them instal a heavy duty one that will handle more power as I add to the system.

a reply to: soficrow
Ah voting is a joke. The wholes system does not work, in fact the whole thing is just a money guzzler. The only thing the so called people get out of it is the pony and horse show, and really the only thing it all does is just that it forces the rich and powerful to waste to much money on unnecessary things, ie circumnavigating and buying out politicians and governments. In all government all governments across the world are a business.

And kotch and the others are merely looking out for there interests, if solar power takes of and even gets a quarter of the things they put behind it, well it would seriously cut into there cash flow and businesses, plus they will have to barter or buy out the new and upcoming business of solar powered devices. So this is more a fight between old money and those trying to become the new money with this products of solar power. In the whole of history there has never been anything else, and there can never be anything else. It is the only thing people are capable of. And round and round it goes. Government, representatives, lobbyists, and the whole thing are all merely just tools.

In all the system has been proved time and time again that it just does not work. Or at least not for the people, and the funny thing is its the people who got these people in power.

a reply to: mOjOm
I have been telling people that for years. The whole system is bought and paid for, there really is nothing to fight for or anything to get worked over. If there ever was a fight, the people lost long ago, the constitutions the whole Representative system the whole show its all just a joke. It just may take them another decade to discover that fact, and like even longer to come to terms with it. And lets be real here, they like it like that, it is after all what humans are.

Ahh, here we go again with yet another heavily trolled thread by brand new ATS members with either no life or a pay per post wight the intent to troll type of job...I'm (and several other MEMBERS) thinking it's the latter, but I digress.

Could've been a good thread too, but it seems we can't have that anymore, either.

Here's my opinion on the OP, for what it's worth anyway.

Until we, The People, do what it takes to kick big business, big corporations, and big money out of the law making and law passing roles they've put themselves in, these types of issues are going to continue and will only get worse.

They're killing us on food prices, energy costs, oil, cotton, medical care...you name it, they control it and are making money hand over fist at the expense of the average American. Makes me want to pack up and move far, far away half the time, but the grass isn't any greener anywhere else.

This topic nothing to do with who ANYONE votes for...Democrat, Republican, Independent: They're all bought and paid for by people like the Walton's (gag, I HATE that store!), the Koch's, corporate lobbyists and super PAC's.
The idea that voting, changing who you vote for, or even running for office (lolz!) would make a bit of difference in regards to the OP just proves the ignorance (or legit trolling) that's been popping up all over ATS the past couple of weeks...

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

...this is more a fight between old money and those trying to become the new money with this products of solar power.

I agree - just new money against old money. ....But wait! The Kochs and Walmart's Waltons are new money. (Have to think about this now.)

In the whole of history there has never been anything else, and there can never be anything else. It is the only thing people are capable of.

I don't agree - there have been other models and can be again.

Government, representatives, lobbyists, and the whole thing are all merely just tools.

Yes, agreed.

In all the system has been proved time and time again that it just does not work. Or at least not for the people, and the funny thing is its the people who got these people in power.

America's Founding Fathers understood the game and strategies, and built safeguards against getting caught up in it. Then their successors got bought out. When Corporations were defined as "persons" under law, the game was lost.

But that doesn't mean we should get rid of all laws or the whole system.





.

If the idiom "follow the money" is widely accepted then it seems we should blame the lobbyists. Except the money didn't start with the lobbyists, or the corporations, it came from the people. First through the corporations that provide for our needs, or cater to our lifestyle, and then through the lobbyists these corporations employ. The poster that said lobbyists are representatives on the other side of the cycle is absolutely correct. I've read suggestions that we need more government oversight, or checks & balances put in place and then this would no longer be a problem. Wasn't that the original framework of our government system in the first place? With a population this size being governed by so few, how do you ensure this new department tasked with regulating our regulatory body is free from corruption if our irresponsible relationship with massive, rich as satan himself, multinational corporations remains uncriticized?

I don't think we can reform our government given the size of our country's population, but I could be wrong. Perhaps when Abe Lincoln was campaigning via railroad the costs of transforming a regular human into the president of a powerful country required shallower pockets, owned by shakers and movers seated closer to the will of the people. Now? Almost impossible to graduate an honest person through the money filters into the oval office, and if we do, how does the myriad of interests housed in the hearts of almost 400 million people all find equal representation in a governing body so centralized? We either need extremely creative reform to the way our will is represented or we need to shrink government to a manageable, local, size.

Btw, trying to privatize the sun, or anything natural for that matter, will have no long-term success. As an individual, you can no longer ignore the destructive, power pyramid you support when the tip of the pyramid is in your face trying to trademark the fundamental elements of your environment. It will ultimately have the same success as trying to illegalize alcohol, or free information, you can't indefinitely hold back what smolders in the freedom-oriented spirit of man.

a reply to: SlickMcFavorite

....Btw, trying to privatize the sun, or anything natural for that matter, will have no long-term success.

Not true. Most Americans strongly support private water rights.

It's not a big leap to privatize sunshine too.

a reply to: soficrow

That kind of supports my whole point though. Protecting the "owned" mineral and water rights to your property from giant corporations emanates from the same live and let live spirit that will make centralized, or "privatized", ownership of the sun impossible in the long-term. In the short-term the fight will be comical as these corporations try to zone and cordon off a resource that slips through your fingers faster than water.

a reply to: SlickMcFavorite

Here ya go - 10 years of T. Boone Pickens siphoning water from the Ogallala Aquifer (and America's breadbasket). [Don't get how you think this supports your argument for privatizing sunshine.]

2004: Texas "Rule of Capture" Fight Heats Up

"Rule of capture" water rights are fightin' words in Texas. Editorials are flying from the Amarrillo Globe News to the Dallas Morning News around and back again. Oil baron and corporate raider T. Boone Pickens plans to make billions selling water instead of oil. By the state's right of capture law, Picken's Mesa Water venture will siphon water from the Ogallala-High Plains aquifer. The aquifer is a prehistoric underground river running under portions of Texas and seven other states. It's America's most important fresh water source. One problem - the Ogallala is already almost sucked dry.

2014. The Last Drop: America's Breadbasket Faces Dire Water Crisis

This story is one in a series on a crisis in America's Breadbasket -the depletion of the Ogallala Aquifer and its effects on a region that helps feed the world.

a reply to: soficrow

There's only one Ogallala Aquifer while sun energy is in abundance so comparing the two is difficult. One is a lot easier than the other to zone and put your flag on (although equally immoral).

The reason your statement "most American's strongly support private water rights" supports my point is because of the reason they support it. The desire to keep water private isn't a vote of confidence in T Boone Pickens (lol name), or corporations owning water/land in general, it's a belief/statement that the government shouldn't own your water. So protecting your properties water and mineral rights is in the same freedom vein as demanding your right to the abundant energy of the sun.

That article is a effing joke.

Kochs, and Walmart eh.

Them GD evil billionaires again eh.

Unless they own a significant amount of shares, that have voting rights.

If they were like Buffet who buys millions of shares in companies. It might be a different story.

Buffet has more cash than both of them.

That article is flat out lying.

First Solar is a $6 billion corporation and the Waltons could lose their collective shirts if solar arrays turn out to be a bad investment.

Yeah it's a bad investment to push a technology that depends on the climate to work.

After all the 'climate is changing'.

Fossil fuels work 24/7 regardless of the weather,

And oh yeah never heard of the GAS TAX?>

Every since the church of climatology has pushed 'more efficient vehicles. Means the states, and the feds are not generating the cash to fix them roads, and bridges.

The 'alternative' energy tax is coming, and that isn't coming from lobbyists.

That comes from idiot politicians.

a reply to: SlickMcFavorite

You're supporting my argument: "protecting your properties water and mineral rights is in the same freedom vein as demanding your right to the abundant energy of the sun. "

...But why do you think it's okay for corporations to grab all the rights just because they have the resources to take lots and distribute more (unlike actual human persons)?

Point being: It's one thing for a human person to claim their freedoms - quite another for inhuman corporations to make the same claim.



:puz :

Hell I don't even see Koch or Walton listed:

www.nasdaq.com...

FMR at number 1 has some familar names:

www.nasdaq.com...

a reply to: soficrow

The debate is illusory. First because the comparison between water and solar is difficult and second because I never said it's "okay for corporations..." to do anything.

What I said was that the attempt at any long-term privatized ownership of any natural resource is a fool's errand because it is.

And actually what I really said was that if T Boone Pickens has enough money to buy an aquifer then we put that money into his pockets because our lifestyle demands heavy consumption of oil. Why am I being approached as if I am pro-corporations when 95% of what I initially typed was about self-empowerment and the dissolution of giant government/corporations?

a reply to: lovebeck

They're killing us on food prices, energy costs, oil, cotton, medical care...

The prices have gone up because of inflation. The central and fractional reserve banking method has monetized all debt and inflated prices at least 10,000 % since 1900.

If inflation adjusted dollars, all prices have gone down since 1900.

you name it, they control it and are making money hand over fist at the expense of the average American.

The control idea is valid. The PTB want big corporations to make everything. It s easier to get a handle on one big company than hundreds or thousands of little ones.

The only solution is start a new economy, one small business at a time.

a reply to: SlickMcFavorite

...any long-term privatized ownership of any natural resource is a fool's errand

What do you mean by "long term"? ...Sorry if I have been misunderstanding your position - but seems to me the global economy is built on "privatized ownership of natural resources" and the situation has been going on long enough to deplete our resources. Not to mention pretty much destroy our planet.

a reply to: soficrow

The definition of long-term is up to humans. If we want to allow a corporation to tax us on our ability to be self-sufficient as long as we allowed say, the ownership of all land by monarchy or the ownership of our own bodies as long as the drug war has lasted, then that's up to us and our current stage of evolution, imo.

Ironically the global economy, also imo, isn't based on real privatized ownership of natural resources because if humans really "owned" their local property they would learn how to operate in balance with it. They therefore wouldn't have anywhere near the desire for global trade as we do now, in which large unethical corporations selling toys to us is a primary vehicle. But that's my worldview, and it may suffer from simplicity as it's worse criticism, but the complexity of going from where we are now to increasing self-sufficiency (the absence of which creates the niche all unethical governments/corporations exploit) will be worked out in the long-term.

originally posted by: Jamie1
a reply to: soficrow

Lobbyist don't pass laws.

Elected representatives do.

Why not blame them?

Mob Bosses don't kill people, the hitmen they hire do!

originally posted by: Jamie1

The responsibility is squarely on the shoulders of the voters. If they're so apathetic and ignorant to vote based on party every election, and are swayed by 30 second commercials and yard signs, that's their own doing.

Isn't the premise of voting "representatives" into office, being that the average American does not have the bandwidth outside of work and family to follow every single issue closely? Nor is general voting on every issue possible. At some point it is the representative's bad if he is screwing the average citizen for payola. He was elected to an office of trust.

"If they're so apathetic and ignorant"...again, I have a hard time blaming the victim for being robbed and abused, more so when there is a well financed, sophisticated and corrupt propaganda and political campaign at work.

Blame the victim..