The God is Real Thread

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: nenothtu

How am I to ask the Teacher anything in any other way? How else would I learn anything?

The teacher knows your needs. We learn by listening. Back to "be still and know". Like here. He is in their world but knows nothing about it. He brings his insolence and ignorance, quickly reprimanded…

In this world we think we know what is going on. What we don't realize is we know nothing except what we have been trained to understand in order to conform to it.

Is that not the very definition of "learning by listening" while denying one's self the right to question?

Is that not the very essence of "being still to just know"?

Just being still and accepting only what's offered is the fast track to "being trained to conform".

a reply to: WarminIndy

That's true!

The smartest PhD Astronomer/Physicist I ever knew was a firm believer in God, for very similar reasons. He was keenly aware of how much we DON'T know.

a reply to: nenothtu

How can you be certain atoms exist in the physical universe? Have you seen one?

Quantum microscope' peers into the hydrogen atom

You'd be surprised the things that I've seen. My daughter has multiple degrees in microbiology and biochemistry and works in a lab that has allowed her to share her microscope with me and many of her students.

So, basically, the only "spirituality" you have or acknowledge is psychology?

That's the kind of spirituality that I was referring to in the post that you answered.

I stand corrected. That was my mistake. I thought when you referred to spiritual things, you were actually referring to spiritual things rather than psychology.

Audio hallucinations have everything to do with a person's "psychology", although that's not my word, but yours. I'm not saying that hallucinations are "psycho", I'm saying that what they project comes from within the mind. When Shaman digest mushrooms, or whatever, what hallucinations they experience may be felt as mental and spiritual, but it will always be a projection from within the Shaman's own mind.

originally posted by: windword

Quantum microscope' peers into the hydrogen atom

You'd be surprised the things that I've seen. My daughter has multiple degrees in microbiology and biochemistry and works in a lab that has allowed her to share her microscope with me and many of her students.

None of that answers my question - have you seen an atom?

So, basically, the only "spirituality" you have or acknowledge is psychology?

That's the kind of spirituality that I was referring to in the post that you answered.

Which again does not answer my question - is psychology the only sort of "spirituality" you acknowledge?

That's quite apart from the question of whether or not psychology is "spirituality" at all, which may be either academic or purely philosophical. To simply acknowledge or refute my question doesn't delve into the mechanics of the two.

maybe I should rephrase the question - do you acknowledge any sort of spirituality apart from simple psychology?

Audio hallucinations have everything to do with a person's "psychology", although that's not my word, but yours. I'm not saying that hallucinations are "psycho", I'm saying that what they project comes from within the mind. When Shaman digest mushrooms, or whatever, what hallucinations they experience may be felt as mental and spiritual, but it will always be a projection from within the Shaman's own mind.

Agreed, ANY sort of hallucination has everything to do with a person's psychology - the critical error here is one of assumption. it is being assumed that there IS a hallucination (rather than an actual event), then working backwards with a confirmation bias to confirm the desired conclusion (i.e. - that it's all just hallucination).

However, what is being built here does tend toward suggesting that you acknowledge nothing spiritual beyond what can be generated by the physical, which doesn't look good for anyone expecting anything more than black and oblivion when they die. If all "spiritual" is generated solely by the physical, then when the physical ceases to exist, so does what was presumed erroneously to be "spiritual" - which is what the atheists say will happen. Are you an atheist?

a reply to: nenothtu

Which again does not answer my question - is psychology the only sort of "spirituality" you acknowledge?

Psychology is the word that you are using, not me. I'm defending my experience and how I perceived and thus related it in this thread.

Agreed, ANY sort of hallucination has everything to do with a person's psychology - the critical error here is one of assumption. it is being assumed that there IS a hallucination (rather than an actual event), then working backwards with a confirmation bias to confirm the desired conclusion (i.e. - that it's all just hallucination).

If the "event" includes entities that are invisible to others who happen to be present, and the audio, likewise, in unheard by others, then, yes, by definition, that's an hallucination. Can such experience be beneficial to mental, emotional, spiritual and physical well being? Certainly.

However, what is being built here does tend toward suggesting that you acknowledge nothing spiritual beyond what can be generated by the physical, which doesn't look good for anyone expecting anything more than black and oblivion when they die.

I've suggested no such thing, I've mere NOT addressed such issues in this thread.

If all "spiritual" is generated solely by the physical, then when the physical ceases to exist, so does what was presumed erroneously to be "spiritual" - which is what the atheists say will happen. Are you an atheist?

We've been through this before. I believe in reincarnation.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

Psychology is the word that you are using, not me. I'm defending my experience and how I perceived and thus related it in this thread.

maybe there is a better word, then. What you said that I took as "psychological" was this:

Thoughts don't exist in the physical universe. They live in the mind of their creator. Thoughts can take on a life of their own , and run amok in one's mind.

Do you have a better word we can use than "psychological" for a phenomena solely present in one's own mind? Perhaps it would help if you could differentiate between what you think of as "spiritual" and what you think of as "psychological", so that we could get onto the same page?

If the "event" includes entities that are invisible to others who happen to be present, and the audio, likewise, in unheard by others, then, yes, by definition, that's an hallucination. Can such experience be beneficial to mental, emotional, spiritual and physical well being? Certainly.

I can find animals in the woods that other people can't see, strain though they might. I can see tracks on the ground that others don't notice at all, because they cannot perceive them, not knowing what to look for. Most of the time, the tracks are so faint that they can't see them even when I outline it for them. Does that make these events "hallucinations" then? I can no longer hear sounds around the 8khz frequency - if you can, does that mean you are hallucinating them?

I've suggested no such thing, I've mere NOT addressed such issues in this thread.

Not in so many words, no - but everything you have said so far leads to the belief that "spiritual" phenomena are being generated solely in the mind of the individual, so if that mind ceases to exist, and can no longer generate them, what becomes of the spiritual?

How does reincarnation work if the brain that generated the spiritual self ceases to function, and therefore can no longer generate the spirit to be reincarnated?

a reply to: nenothtu

How does reincarnation work if the brain that generated the spiritual self ceases to function, and therefore can no longer generate the spirit to be reincarnated?

A strong spirit can linger, but in my opinion, the spirit eventually dissipates. The "spirit" may linger due to reputation, literary and art work, notoriety, etc. It's the "Soul" that reincarnates. You are not your thoughts, deeds, dreams, demons, etc., Those are all temporary constructs of the ego, that can't go with you when you leave.

I can find animals in the woods that other people can't see, strain though they might. I can see tracks on the ground that others don't notice at all, because they cannot perceive them, not knowing what to look for. Most of the time, the tracks are so faint that they can't see them even when I outline it for them. Does that make these events "hallucinations" then?

Unless those animals aren't really there, in the flesh, yes, you would be hallucinating. But, from everything that you're saying there, it sounds like you're just highly tuned to your environment. Nothing supernatural about that!

I can no longer hear sounds around the 8khz frequency - if you can, does that mean you are hallucinating them?

Are you suggesting that God/Jesus and demons generate subtle sound waves to put thought into peoples heads, and don't work telepathically? In that case, we need to get some sophisticated equipment to record those messages!

Do you have a better word we can use than "psychological" for a phenomena solely present in one's own mind?

I think that we need to be able to discern the difference between remembering a dream, watching a movie or reading a book, and having a real live experience. They're ALL important facets of our maturity. But, I think we would be hard pressed to find a wall that distinctively divides those rooms.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

A strong spirit can linger, but in my opinion, the spirit eventually dissipates. The "spirit" may linger due to reputation, literary and art work, notoriety, etc. It's the "Soul" that reincarnates.

It seems that I'm just entirely unable to pin down what you think constitutes "spirit" and what you think constitutes "soul". Unless I can get a grasp on that, this conversation will necessarily end, as there will be no common framework to work within.

What is it about "reputation, literary and art work, notoriety, etc." that leads you to believe that a "spirit" will linger and then dissipate? How do those qualities affect "spirit" to produce those results?

You are not your thoughts, deeds, dreams, demons, etc., Those are all temporary constructs of the ego, that can't go with you when you leave.

Oddly enough, my mother believes the same thing, and she's a Baptist. We had the same conversation a few nights ago, and I had to tell her I had no desire to go to a "heaven" where I was no longer me - that's the same as "me" not going to her heaven at all. I'd just as soon hit nirvana and be blotted out - which amounts to the same thing, i suppose.

It does seem to fly in the face of Buddhist notions of reincarnation as well - from what I've gathered, they believe the purpose of reincarnation is to improve the self to the point that nirvana can be reached, but if none of those improvements go with you when you leave, then nirvana will never be reached, and one is doomed to an endless cycle of repetitive rebirths.

Unless those animals aren't really there, in the flesh, yes, you would be hallucinating. But, from everything that you're saying there, it sounds like you're just highly tuned to your environment. Nothing supernatural about that!

Exactly! There's nothing "supernatural" about it at all, in spite of the fact that I can detect them when others with me can't. I don't believe ANYTHING is "supernatural", but I suppose that boils down to how one would define "natural". Is a "Spirit" or a "soul" natural, or supernatural? Do you have one, or do you not? Would I be able to see it if you do? What about "mind"? Do they exist? Are they natural or supernatural? Can you see one? What color is it if you can?

Are you suggesting that God/Jesus and demons generate subtle sound waves to put thought into peoples heads, and don't work telepathically? In that case, we need to get some sophisticated equipment to record those messages!

Nope, I wasn't suggesting that at all, but since you bring it up, it IS an intriguing possibility. Telepathy may not be real, either - you can't see a telepathy wave. Same for radio - you can't see a radio wave, either, so they may not, in fact, exist at all.

No, what I was getting at is that different things can be perceived by different people - but they are no less real because some can perceive them while others cannot.

I think that we need to be able to discern the difference between remembering a dream, watching a movie or reading a book, and having a real live experience. They're ALL important facets of our maturity. But, I think we would be hard pressed to find a wall that distinctively divides those rooms.

There MUST be those walls - otherwise, you would not be able to tell where "hallucination" leaves off and "actual experience of a spirit" takes over, which means that you could never argue against an "experience" of the Abrahamic God (or one of Zeus or Inanna, for that matter) and dismiss it as mere "hallucination" - you would not have the boundaries to categorize it as such.

OP is suffering from what they call Positive Schizophrenic Symptoms (more than likely some of the Negative symptoms as well) it's not your fault, GMOs & fluorde & chemtrails etc

a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes, He knows what you need, but He still says we are to ask.

A baby doesn't know what it "needs" It cries because the poop in its diapers burns, not because it "needs a diaper change". In the Avatar YouTube analogy, the "Marine" is ignorant of everything, "like a baby".

a reply to: nenothtu

Just being still and accepting only what's offered is the fast track to "being trained to conform".

Considering the source, I personally welcome being schooled in the spirit. You might say, 'by the "living" word'.

Long time getting there, though. How long can you sit still and quiet with your eyes closed? You might respond, whats the point of that?

Thats how little patience we have. The spirit don't bother trying to teach over the din. We decide amongst our fellow human beings whats right and wrong and what path we should be on.

We write books, go to church and theologize all day and at the head of the 'class room' the teacher is standing quietly, arms crossed, tapping their foot…

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: nenothtu

Just being still and accepting only what's offered is the fast track to "being trained to conform".

Considering the source, I personally welcome being schooled in the spirit. You might say, 'by the "living" word'.

That is, of course, your prerogative. For myself, I would have to question just what the "source" IS if it cannot tolerate being questioned. A spirit, perhaps, but the question is WHICH spirit? Of course, if you aren't allowed to question that, you will never know.

Long time getting there, though. How long can you sit still and quiet with your eyes closed? You might respond, whats the point of that?

No idea. I try not to go through life with my eyes closed.

Thats how little patience we have. The spirit don't bother trying to teach over the din. We decide amongst our fellow human beings whats right and wrong and what path we should be on.

That again begs the question of WHICH spirit it is, if it can't get your attention "over the din" of living.

We write books, go to church and theologize all day and at the head of the 'class room' the teacher is standing quietly, arms crossed, tapping their foot…

It appears that our experiences of teachers have been somewhat different.

I hesitated before posting simply because I didn't want to offend anyone here, or derail this thread. However...as much as I hope there is a God and as much as the majority believes in one God or the other, I think it is time for religions to combine into something much more simple and universally accepted. No one has to change their core beliefs...God, savior, saints, etc. But if we could simply drop the names, the sexes, the stories, the places and get back to what God is...or what God is about...maybe we could all come together under one "God" instead of fighting under different religions.

And here is the line that caused me to hesitate. I write music...hard rock/metal. A line I used in a song to sum this up was "My love of God, dictates my hate for religion".

Nuff said. Go back to what you were doing

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE
But what if one of the "core beliefs" is that the God in question communicates with humanity and has SAID "I am different from other gods, do not worship them"?
It is not logically possible for believers in that God to combine their religion with others, because if they do they contradict the core of their own belief system.
And it is not logically possible for believers in other gods to combine their own religion with a God who rejects their own version of god.
Contradictions cannot be combined into a unity.

a reply to: nenothtu

It appears that our experiences of teachers have been somewhat different.

Right, you are taught by men. Which spirit? When the real one reveals itself you will know. You mistrust them all because thats what you have been taught. The Bible is the only source of Gods word, right? Or other peoples interpretation?

The key is to find how they found the wisdom to know what to write down.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: AutumnWitch657

What about free will. Your story takes that right out of the equation.

Whose free will are you talking about?
The guy who was robbing me, you want him to be able to make the decision to rob me more that the one time?

That or your free will to change the locks.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: AutumnWitch657

What about free will. Your story takes that right out of the equation.

Whose free will are you talking about?
The guy who was robbing me, you want him to be able to make the decision to rob me more that the one time?

That or your free will to change the locks.

reply to: Ignatian
Um I think you got the story wrong bud. Jesus is the son he didn't create anything. Remember Father, Son, Holy Spirit? And there are thousands of Christians spouting hate every day of the year. Some of the most judgemental people on the planet claim to be Christian. Open your eyes.

It's silly to assign gender to a force. But they call boats and cars she so? May as well call gravity he or electricity she. Or atomic fusion him. reply to: nenothtu

a reply to: nenothtu

It seems that I'm just entirely unable to pin down what you think constitutes "spirit" and what you think constitutes "soul". Unless I can get a grasp on that, this conversation will necessarily end, as there will be no common framework to work within.

I really wouldn't trust anyone who claims to be able to delineate the difference. However, in my mind, spirit is a thing that bodies and souls create, like an energy aura. For example: The In the "spirit" of charity; You can feel the "spirit" of Michelangelo when you see his work at the Sistene Chapel; The Doobie Brother's concert brought back memories of the "spirit" of the '70s; His hostility created a "spirit" of intimidation.

There MUST be those walls

Said every member of TPTB EVER! Keep those Crayola colors INSIDE the lines!