MGTOW: Men Going Their Own Way

The Cliches of relationships just aren't the most present issues that must be addressed in today's society. If I wanted to raise a child I could just adopt, plenty of lives need saving.

The population of man isn't a big issue right now and if it ever was to the point that we'd have gone extinct. We wouldn't be here. Sex and relationships isn't something to just toy around with.

If I have respect for myself, and respect for others (Women Included),

What sense does it make to stress about two people coming together in a relationship that neither really wants to be in or stress about when it should happen, especially when there are economic implications and lives at stake (children) out of wedlock which have to be answered to first?

If as a woman you are so concerned about "finding a man" you need to reassess your priorities. And think about what you really mean by that.

A child is not the continuation of you. A child is a singular being and that's something you don't #@$% around with when you're not serious about people and relating to people.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

I know. Made up by a very small minority lashing out. However, the trend toward PEOPLE, as in across the spectrum, not marrying and choosing to live a solo life is very real. They just don't form clumps and make noise like these dudes.

a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

I'm basing it on history and personal life experience and observations. And I don't care to or need to prove my opinion.

Oh, and I've never been to a 'feminist website" in my life, snarker. So maybe just step back.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: vasaga

America, in particular, for all it's "we're going into Afghanistan for the women" BS is one of the more bass ackwards countries on the planet. We have huge domestic violence issues here so who are we to be fixing the world. We haven't even had (read allowed) a woman leader yet. Few even enter politics. Makes you wonder why. Talk about the old boys club and holding women back. But then again, that's our own fault too.

What makes you assume that it's because women are held back?

I've seen female CEOs, I've seen females in pretty much all fields and at high positions. In fact, the current model we live in highly favors women. Communication skills, socialization, multi-tasking, paper work, it's all there to facilitate women, since generally women have those traits as strong points, stronger than men on average. That we haven't had a female president, well... Maybe women simply have different priorities, or maybe they are unwilling to put in the effort that is required. Blaming it on men holding them back is nonsense. We've rarely see a female version in history that against all odds still fights for what she believes in. The list of male revolutionists is much higher than females, and note that these men all chose to be what they were in the face of death and torture. There is no bigger threat than those things. They believed that the values and messages they brought were more important than their own lives. How many women have had the values and courage to do the same in history? The only recent one I can think of is Malala. At the same time we've had a longer list of males in recent history, two of the most known ones are Jullian Assange and Edward Snowden.

That's all beside the fact that voting doesn't matter at all, especially in the US. And also note that domestic violence against men is higher than against women in the US. Just sayin'.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

I'm basing it on history and personal life experience and observations. And I don't care to or need to prove my opinion.

Oh, and I've never been to a 'feminist website" in my life, snarker. So maybe just step back.

Oh the lived experience argument eh?

geekfeminism.wikia.com...

The term lived experience is used to describe the first-hand accounts and impressions of living as a member of a minority or oppressed group. When women talk about what it's like to be female in a predominantly male geek community, they are describing their lived experiences.

. . .

The FLOSSPOLS survey on gender in Open Source Software shows a good example of the disparity of perception between women's lived experience and men's impressions:

"In our survey almost all female participants have observed or experienced discriminatory behaviour against themselves or other women in the general F/LOSS community, but only 1/5 of all men reported to have perceived discriminatory behaviour against women. Also within their projects more than half of the women observed or experienced discriminative behaviour against women, but only about one out of ten men had the same perception."

All of history . . . lived experience . . . don't need any proof . . .

Feminist pedagogy
en.wikipedia.org...

If you take a look at the methods you might find just how much influence this movement actually has on the so called "discussion."

The entire projection of men controlling women has been greatly distorted from what was originally a very clear issue and now often includes any incidence of a woman (gender not sex) perceiving a feeling of discomfort.

Cut the MGTOW guys some slack, they are not guilty of the original sin of history you are implying they have, and have incredibly legitimate concerns when the same rules are applied to them as to women in the context of your evaluation.

-FBB

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
I'm basing it on history and personal life experience and observations. And I don't care to or need to prove my opinion.

Biased sample
Hasty generalization

Definition of opinion:
a view or judgement formed about something, not (necessarily) based on fact or knowledge.

You might not care to prove your 'opinion', or you might feel that you don't need to, but that means that we are by default not required to acknowledge anything you say. I'll leave this here as well:

The game of opinions

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: galadofwarthethird

there's just one problem with the video's message:

if a woman is unattractive, she is expected (and even expects this of herself) to at least try to be presentable, and if possible, apply a bit of artistic know how to accentuate her better features, while playing down her less attractive ones. for example, if a woman has very wide hips, she knows she can draw attention away from that feature, to, perhaps, a thinner waistline. this is so when she goes out in public, or looks in the mirror, she doesn't become an eyesore to the otherwise glorious-ness of nature around her. so women don't just dress/accentuate/doll up/etc, their appearance for the potentiality of attracting attention or mates or accolades from others, but also for her own peace of mind. (generally speaking)

Interesting things the sexes are.
Unattractive women fake attractiveness to better attract a mate.
Po boys fake prosperity to better attract a mate.

A $300.00 Columbia brand winter jacket could have gotten me more dates in high school many moons ago ; what? as opposed to NONE? The popular people who got dates had the clothes.
High school to me was the school of banality, or should I say the first place that I realised just how 'plastic dipped' a lot of us are.
Seems like people of reason are being out-bred.

a reply to: ghostrager
Sorry dude but I just dont see it in daily life. Even those who are staying away from women are only basically doing it because they dont want to get untangled in all that, but they still have girlfriends if only once in a while. And on the women side, its pretty much the same.

Like I said this may be more about economic standing then anything else. I think its time to admit that all that which came before was a cool theory...But it does not work, and now the consequences are just coming to the forefront.

a reply to: ghostrager
You kind of prove what I said earlier. This is not a new thing, this is just the logical continuation of an old thing. And it is mostly purely economical. Lets just say that the theory of love and marriage has turned out to be just that... A nice theory.

I mean look at it even from the previous generation, feminists, in this vid which undo linked back. You have her talking about all different things, some make good points but others are merely just the fact that they now have to compensate for the things they themselfs have introduced and created into there life's.

Even when she is talking about how women need to not hold on till marriage to have kids and the whole sexual freedom thing, what she is really saying as well is that it would also be a lot easier for her. If she did not have as much pressure and competition when ready to get married if guys did not have it so easy when women are more sexual active and in charge of themselfs.

And on that part were she is saying successful women do have it harder in finding mates, that to is just a direct result of the shifting cultures. In fact there not having a harder time, they are just not willing to go with a guy who is bellow there social and economical scale, or if they are then they still want them to do all the wooing and such. In fact I probably suspect that most of these hardcore feminists are just females who bought into the whole men have it easier thing so they should get higher jobs. And now find themself ripped off, to sort of say. But even those are likely a small minority.

But you know, its also a numbers game, ultimately I think they are just pissed and pouti that there options even with all that work are still the same, or that men are now even more bellow there expectations, and not only that but they now also have to put effort into the whole thing, which is pretty much impossible for some of them. I mean you break down the whole previous constructs on how we do things in terms of this mating game, and there are likely to be new issues all across the board.

So ya! Its to be expected. In all I still dont see any of this as that big a deal.

a reply to: Bluesma

Behaviors recognized as "nice" has a different definition depending upon the person.

Really. So in some cultures slapping someone across the face is seeing as being nice? I think most definitions of nice are pretty much the same across the globe and cultures.

The definition of "decency is "behaviour that conforms to accepted standards of morality or respectability." What those accepted standards are varies depending upon culture, and treating someone as you want to be treated doesn't work when you have different standards.

If you treat someone in a way that is acceptable in your culture, but unacceptable in theirs, they usually will not do it back (because they too, don't want to do something they don't want to receive) they will just feel offended and refuse to do business with you.

So what your saying seeing as your from France. And so since we know french people are rude. Then me being rude to you is seen and interpreted as being nice?

You know in Europe and even italy I think raising your voice and screaming and yelling at one another is considered socially accepted among couples or families. In fact I have a friend who is Polish, they scream at eachother all the time, in fact they scream at eachotoer on principle alone, even in normal talk in there language they sound like there always arguing about something. To them its pretty normal, so normal in fact that they are not even aware of it.

So again what you are saying is that if I go to Italy or meet some people from there i should be more vocal as well. You know just blab at them as loud as I can, SO HOW ARE YOU ALL DOING....To make them fell like home right?

So while the cultures may be different I do not think the method of implying decency is much different all across the globe cultural differences aside.

I would think it isn't hard to grasp, and yet, here we are. How do you determine what the other expects you to be?

I dont expect them to be anything. But it seems once in a while I run across some who expect me to...For instance..You.

That is my point. You are in the midst of people from a totally different culture, with different morals, values, traditions, world view.... how do you figure out what will offend them, and what won't, in that moment? Sensitivity, alertness to subtle non-verbal cues.

Well ya! That and if you were in a place with a different language and different customs. You probably would not understand what there saying or doing in the first place. Being watchful is then the thing to do.

I have given an example- myself. I was attracted to a man who had no money, no home, no car. I was so attracted to him I married him. Later, together, we became wealthy. But what I fell in love with was what he had inside- his mind, his thoughts, his emotional state of being. You have the right to your opinion, but you will not succeed in convincing me that I do not exist.

Actually yes... Like I said before I believe you. But what does any of that have to do with anything but you. Never mind me, we may as well be in different dimensions, and that to I said before...So technically yes, you do not exist to me, your just some words on the screen. And the things you say and attribute to women, that to is purely a female perspective on things, and you seem to try and apply them to males, which does not work because there based on your interpretation of thing...So the only thing I can say to it all...Interesting theories, I have heard of it, but I have never seen it.

Success is relative to goal. I was looking for success in a relationship -which means a strong will, endurance, ability to be realistic, face challenges, keep an optimistic focus. A successful relationship can be created without wealth. (I was quite used to being poor and didn't have any silly fantasies about ever getting out of that).

OK! I believe you, so can we like move on. I really dont see what this has to do with anything. Every dude knows success is important in everything regarding women.

The wealth comes as a side effect almost, from the goal.... because people with good relationships are then more supported and have more energy and confidence in all other areas of their life.

Well ya, I agree.

This shows that you are running on mistaken beliefs. This is part of the poor mentality, which comes to false conclusions based on superficial appearences (I used to think this too).

Am I now. Or are you merely running on the view of your perspectives. Have you ever thought to consider that the things you have experienced have absolutely nothing to do with me, or even that much with my reality? So ya, it is apples and oranges, crows and eagles.

When you really get to know successful and wealthy people, a surprising majority of them are NOT that way!

Well I should think so. Having no problems and no real issues in your life makes you more happy. And having none of the above makes your hair turn gray. One generally leads into another, they are not the same thing. For instance if all of a sudden all there success and wealth were to be taken away...They would be a lot less happy people. So ya, what else would they be sad because they have practically everything they ever wanted and more then they would ever need?

You see. I told you that you, or at least implied that you have never really in your life actually had any real issues. When you do, you will see.

You know how some people say "Money isn't important", and it makes you grit your teeth, because you think, "well that is easy for someone who HAS IT to say!" You assume they only feel that way NOW, because they have enough of it.

You dont need money to feel important or even loved. However it helps a great deal, most especially were females are concerned. SO you can even say, that it has been proven time and time again that money does buy happiness, and yes money can even buy love....Human are not that deep or that complicated as you seem to think.

But in a huge amount of cases, they started with that attitude. They started with the attitude that what is important is to love and feel joy in whatever you are doing. From there, the side effect was success, because that which you put your love into grows and flourishes.

I agree...But I also believe and know that is only not always to be the case. Which is why for the majority of cases women look for reassurances when looking for a mate. You know to up there chances on that working out.

You know this is all getting redundant.

a reply to: BlubberyConspiracy
So dam true. But more then children are singular beings.
I think for the most part we all are our own singularity.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

I know. Made up by a very small minority lashing out. However, the trend toward PEOPLE, as in across the spectrum, not marrying and choosing to live a solo life is very real. They just don't form clumps and make noise like these dudes.

In human societies what does not make a noise or a splash might as well not exist as far as anybody is concerned. So I really do not think anybody gives as # about these MGTOEs or whatever guys, even they themself probably dont. So really what we have here is just the continuation of the battle of the sexes from the past, only now set on a new field.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird

Really. So in some cultures slapping someone across the face is seeing as being nice? I think most definitions of nice are pretty much the same across the globe and cultures.

You put an example below, of just such a difference. I'll put another- it is seen as rude to us to open an interaction with- "whoa, you have gained weight! You look terribly fat lately!"
In their culture, that is polite, because it shows you are paying attention to them, and care about their well being and health.
There are many more examples I could give, which make the debate about who is actually the rude one very relative indeed.

You know in Europe and even italy I think raising your voice and screaming and yelling at one another is considered socially accepted among couples or families. In fact I have a friend who is Polish, they scream at eachother all the time, in fact they scream at eachotoer on principle alone, even in normal talk in there language they sound like there always arguing about something. To them its pretty normal, so normal in fact that they are not even aware of it.

So again what you are saying is that if I go to Italy or meet some people from there i should be more vocal as well. You know just blab at them as loud as I can, SO HOW ARE YOU ALL DOING....To make them fell like home right?

Yes, that would be appropriate, if you intend to create any alliances or exchanges with those people. Remember, these points all refer back to the connection with "class" as an adjective, a quality of personality, and "class" as in "social status".

If you are yelling, or easily expressing anger or irritation, that is seen as freeing the other to do so as well.
If you do not do it, then they feel they cannot either, and they feel oppressed by you. The latin cultures in general (Italian, French, Spanish), are more expressive of emotions, and they feel that if you express them spontaneously, they are short lived and less destructive than if you keep them bottled up over time. This is why, if you are subdued and not volatile, they will find you untrustworthy- they suspect you've got a nasty volcano brewing inside.

I dont expect them to be anything. But it seems once in a while I run across some who expect me to...For instance..You.

I don't expect you to be other than than you are here. We've had enough interaction for me to be familiar with your habitual behavior and that will probably never change!
The question was- if you were, say a head of state, or a powerful citizen, and went into another country in order to make deals, create alliances and friendships, as a delegate or representative, it would be important to not offend those you go to meet. How would you determine what kind of behavior will be most effective in that environment?

Well ya! That and if you were in a place with a different language and different customs. You probably would not understand what there saying or doing in the first place. Being watchful is then the thing to do.

Even if you speak the language (for people in such positions of higher social class often receive education in languages) then that watchfulness must be increased to receptivity of the most subtle non-verbal cues. The higher the sensitivity, the more that is enabled.

Actually yes... Like I said before I believe you. But what does any of that have to do with anything but you.

It is a response to your claim that it is impossible, that no woman like that exists, and to claim so is like claiming a "squirrel that does calculus". I am a woman, I am this way, so I cannot accept and agree with your claim.

OK! I believe you, so can we like move on. I really dont see what this has to do with anything. Every dude knows success is important in everything regarding women.

Not any more than for men. They just don't always have the same goals they hope to succeed at.

You see. I told you that you, or at least implied that you have never really in your life actually had any real issues. When you do, you will see.

Yes, you have told me that. You have an ignorant and uninformed opinion of my past and life.
I have had plenty of "issues" I was raped at five, beaten regularly enough to make me known intimately at the ER before the age of 8, then had both my parents disappear at nine and leave me to raise two younger siblings, one mentally retarded; I had to steal food for them, and find clothes in dumpsters. Mom came back once she found a husband and took us in when I was 15.... but by then I was used to struggling so went on to leaving home, living in a car while very pregnant... then trying to go to college while raising a child alone in someones garage. I have gone full days without food, and was very proud of my non-materialistic nature, happy with my thin figure (which was dangerously underweight) loving my freedom. I imagined I was a better person than those who had more, who didn't know this experience. I imagined having less materially made one more spiritually.
Many people who have money now once didn't, and know exactly what "issues" are.

I won't bother telling you about yourself and your past, I figure that is something you know more about than I, a stranger on the other side of the world! LOL!

Human are not that deep or that complicated as you seem to think.

Some are, some aren't. It is the generalizations you use which claim "all" are this or that, without exception, that I disagree with.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

You know Europe is very far from being homogenous culturally. Comparing Mediterranean countries with Western European ones and Nordic ones, you might as well equate Mexicans and Americans. We Scandinavians for example are very low key and you'd be very hard-pressed to find us screaming at each other in public.

Sorry, just a bit of a stickler, seems some Americans have one dimensional views of and ideas about Europe, not saying you're one of them just pointing out the huge differences between say Latin cultures and other European cultures.

a reply to: Bluesma

You put an example below, of just such a difference. I'll put another- it is seen as rude to us to open an interaction with- "whoa, you have gained weight! You look terribly fat lately!" In their culture, that is polite, because it shows you are paying attention to them, and care about their well being and health.

I always open conversation of people I know who have gained weight by generally remarking on it. Once even on a friend of mines pregnant girlfriend...What can I say women have no sense of humor.

If you are yelling, or easily expressing anger or irritation, that is seen as freeing the other to do so as well. If you do not do it, then they feel they cannot either, and they feel oppressed by you. The latin cultures in general (Italian, French, Spanish), are more expressive of emotions, and they feel that if you express them spontaneously, they are short lived and less destructive than if you keep them bottled up over time. This is why, if you are subdued and not volatile, they will find you untrustworthy- they suspect you've got a nasty volcano brewing inside.

Oh I know. I am originally born in that part of the world. I was merely commenting and explaining on it, and how if it was seen by somebody who did not witness it before like an American they would likely call the cops because they thought something was going to happen. Besides sometimes you need to scream at each other...its good for the soul. Just dont get to hectic or serious about it.

I don't expect you to be other than than you are here. We've had enough interaction for me to be familiar with your habitual behavior and that will probably never change!

Yes. Because everybody you meet online is how they appear to be. Must be a strange world you live in were everything is exactly as it appears to be. But I sort of got that from reading your believes. Truly it is amazing. I have never in my entire life had it that nominal. Most people I meet online are exactly who they dont seem to be, some could be reptilians or AI lifeforms.

The question was- if you were, say a head of state, or a powerful citizen, and went into another country in order to make deals, create alliances and friendships, as a delegate or representative, it would be important to not offend those you go to meet. How would you determine what kind of behavior will be most effective in that environment?

Is this a trick question? Or do you really not know? Its all a show! So the whole thing is purely just an act.

Even if you speak the language (for people in such positions of higher social class often receive education in languages) then that watchfulness must be increased to receptivity of the most subtle non-verbal cues. The higher the sensitivity, the more that is enabled.

Like i said its just an act. The herd mentality. Languages are just transient things. In fact once even on this site i was thinking of trying to communicate by music songs. It did not turn out that well. In all spoken and written language is one of the worst ways to communicate, or so I thought. Now i believe there are much worse ways.

But like I said. Its just an act, especially among the richer classes and especially in politics and government. So you just show them what they want to see. Its not rocket science here.

It is a response to your claim that it is impossible, that no woman like that exists, and to claim so is like claiming a "squirrel that does calculus". I am a woman, I am this way, so I cannot accept and agree with your claim.

Sorry it does not exist. Or at least not outside of your construct, and even there its merely circumstantial. If you believe you are only effect you, and a few others around you. I however do not believe you are. Nothing you have said makes me say or believe otherwise. It could just be me...But nah! I have seen it enough times in my life to know that is not true, and it does to apply if not to all females but at the very least the majority of them.

I do not understand why you believe words mean or can change anything? I mean you can go back and talk to your buddies or go and give eachother stars on this site for eons and eons to come. And none of that would change anything. The only thing it will do is likely just create a bauble reality for you all to pat eachoters backs of and on, its about as effective as democracy is in the US of A, basically not at all effective.

But really? What is your point? What are you trying to get at? To tell the truth I do not get it. Are you just trying to piss me off or confuse me or something? Because its not working, though it is sort of confusing, and sometimes pissy offitish.

Not any more than for men. They just don't always have the same goals they hope to succeed at.

Well ain't that just convenient. Another thing which means absolutely nothing. OK. Almost absolutely nothing.

Yes, you have told me that. You have an ignorant and uninformed opinion of my past and life. I have had plenty of "issues" I was raped at five, beaten regularly enough to make me known intimately at the ER before the age of 8, then had both my parents disappear at nine and leave me to raise two younger siblings, one mentally retarded; I had to steal food for them, and find clothes in dumpsters. Mom came back once she found a husband and took us in when I was 15.... but by then I was used to struggling so went on to leaving home, living in a car while very pregnant... then trying to go to college while raising a child alone in someones garage.

You know what?

If that is true then I do have an bizarrely different picture of you, then what you really are like. And I believe you may right. I say may be...

I won't bother telling you about yourself and your past, I figure that is something you know more about than I, a stranger on the other side of the world! LOL!

Oh you would be surprised what I can piece together. Not that I want to you know. I was merely going on the little voice in my head that was insinuating , and this bizarre gut feeling that was telling me to make you go away. I have failed in that. I suppose I should have tried harder...Or something.

So I was wrong about you...Mistakes do happen you know. Sorry about that. Can we like move on, and you leave me alone now? I really dont know what you are about except trying to be all weird and stuff with me.

I imagined I was a better person than those who had more, who didn't know this experience. I imagined having less materially made one more spiritually. Many people who have money now once didn't, and know exactly what "issues" are.

Listen I said I was wrong about you OK. Or not, as you could just be making things up. I mean its the internet, nobody know who is who on here.

But either way I may have misjudged you. Or I should not have judged you in the first place. But you presume to much on why i got issues with you and yours, or even that i do. Judgmental lately?

Some are, some aren't. It is the generalizations you use which claim "all" are this or that, without exception, that I disagree with.

No. Believe you me. Were none of us all that deep. Which may be a good thing, or a bad thing. Depending on how you look at it.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod
Oh there are differences even next country over. Or even next town over. But some things seem to be ingrained in certain peoples. Besides they dont do it in public.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird

Oh I know. I am originally born in that part of the world. I was merely commenting and explaining on it, and how if it was seen by somebody who did not witness it before like an American they would likely call the cops because they thought something was going to happen.

So you do get why being aware of that would be important for a person in a diplomatic role to know and adjust their behavior accordingly.

Is this a trick question? Or do you really not know? Its all a show! So the whole thing is purely just an act.

Of course, behavior is all about acts, and communication.

Like i said its just an act. The herd mentality. Languages are just transient things.

Language is just a tool for communication. If you intend to communicate "I respect you" than doing acts which will offend or hurt them does not convey that effectively.
Class is perceived as an ability to respect others.

Sorry it does not exist.

So we agree to disagree on that. There are women who are not purely materialistic and superficial.

But really? What is your point? What are you trying to get at? To tell the truth I do not get it. Are you just trying to piss me off or confuse me or something? Because its not working, though it is sort of confusing, and sometimes pissy offitish.

You have lost the topic. It is not YOU, I am not trying to "do" anything to you. We were discussing the inherent nature of women, you and I disagreed on some points. You feel that "class" is not a characteristic of character, and I argued that it is, and described it.
You are confusing yourself by reading my arguments and asking "what does this say about me?"
I am not trying to say anything about you.

Well ain't that just convenient. Another thing which means absolutely nothing. OK. Almost absolutely nothing.

The concept of "success" is relative to intent or goal.

But either way I may have misjudged you. Or I should not have judged you in the first place. But you presume to much on why i got issues with you and yours, or even that i do. Judgmental lately?

I have no presumptions about why "you got issues" with me. I don't see it as important to try to consider. "How you feel about me" is not the topic.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: galadofwarthethird

You know Europe is very far from being homogenous culturally. Comparing Mediterranean countries with Western European ones and Nordic ones, you might as well equate Mexicans and Americans. We Scandinavians for example are very low key and you'd be very hard-pressed to find us screaming at each other in public.

Sorry, just a bit of a stickler, seems some Americans have one dimensional views of and ideas about Europe, not saying you're one of them just pointing out the huge differences between say Latin cultures and other European cultures.

That is very true. I think sometimes Americans do not understand the vast differences in the various European cultures and nations. I certainly had no idea before coming here. (hence my reason for being precise about the reference pertaining to latin culture in particular- they are almost the complete opposite of the Nordics!)

Woman are annoying with the "I'm hot like I was when I was 20" b.s. maybe some 40 or 50 year olds can pull it off, sort of...

Give up that # and the world would improve instantly. The look at me, disney princess crap

a reply to: Bluesma

So you do get why being aware of that would be important for a person in a diplomatic role to know and adjust their behavior accordingly.

Its a duh.

Language is just a tool for communication. If you intend to communicate "I respect you" than doing acts which will offend or hurt them does not convey that effectively. Class is perceived as an ability to respect others.

If you say so.

So we agree to disagree on that. There are women who are not purely materialistic and superficial.

If you say so again. Though they world and constructs they have build and are stuck in, says otherwise.

You have lost the topic. It is not YOU, I am not trying to "do" anything to you. We were discussing the inherent nature of women, you and I disagreed on some points. You feel that "class" is not a characteristic of character, and I argued that it is, and described it. You are confusing yourself by reading my arguments and asking "what does this say about me?" I am not trying to say anything about you.

Oh I do not think I am confusing anything. You just keep changing the topic to different things. Now the topic is class. And your the one talking to me, bestride all my efforts to make you not talk to me...So really, I dont know what to say. A majority of the things you say make sense only in your perspective and world.

To me there like stories I have heard but never seen. So ya, I think theory is the word. I mean ok you want me to be more nice. OK I can do that. But what of it?

The concept of "success" is relative to intent or goal.

Success...Intent...Goal..Those are all for the most part personal concepts.

I have no presumptions about why "you got issues" with me. I don't see it as important to try to consider. "How you feel about me" is not the topic.

Well ya! Thats the thing. There is no topic. You just keep saying things. And none of them matter. So I respond, and none of that matters. I mean, were all just words on the screen here. But yes I was going to ignore this and you till it all goes away. But you know, us cats are sometimes curious. With enough ignoring power one can make it like one does not exist. And besides, I think since now were equal, you know men and women and all that. Its high time I removed all of that from my mind and existence. No offense but I dont want to argue in circles with strange women on the internet forever and ever and ever. much less play guessing games on a conspiracy website. Its why I asked you over and over, what is it you want or trying to say? I mean I already told you...You are you...And I am me...And like everybody else who are individuals and singularities. The things we experience even if they are the same things, are not from the same viewpoint. So lets just say we both do not exist to each other. That is the truest thing anybody can say.

a reply to: Salamandy
I do not think women have problems getting attention at any age. At least I have not seen any of them at any age without a partner, and if there not. There likely going through a stage or something. This war of the sexes thing, its what its all about. Something about towing in tow and steeping on people toes.