The God Dilemma - Choice Between Two Undesirable Outcomes

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

Just because you give something a label does not make it true...

I could just as simply say to you that just because you don't understand the Trinity doesn't make it polytheism.

Except that would be false... I understand it completely...

In fact I would say I understand it far better then Christians do because I can see it as it is... that being not true...

All anyone has to do is look at the creeds of Christianity to see the truth of it...

Just read the Athanasian creed...

IF there is a trinity, which the bible does not actually support... it certainly isn't as its stated in the creeds of Christianity

Stick to the name you gave yourself man, don't resort to being a typical Christian...

Just because I don't agree with something in your religion does not mean I don't understand it...

Don't give me this... "IF you understood it you'd agree with it" crap... you're better then that

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Or, you could read the Bible and know that all things exist in the soul of the universe, produced by what is not seen, contained in the Son (Adam). You and I are images of the first. Jesus answers to the Father and received the Spirit.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Atman from Gita 13

The Field of Activities - Atman

"nonattachment to children, wife, home and the rest, and even-mindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me,"

Luke 14

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

What do you hear in the two comparisons? Hate or Nonattachment? Which reflects the higher truth? Did Jesus mean hate, or love for family? In the Gita, service to family is of the highest of a person's duty. By nonattachment, it is not implying anything other than a love for the entire family (entire universal soul). I would assume Jesus meant the same, although Yahweh sent the savior for his nation. It can be argued the gentiles were grafted in by Paul.

Which scriptures came first? Are there traditions that Jesus traveled to the East during the missing years? What did he find? Is there material evidence he was there? Yes. There are many artifacts. You are judging this apart from investigation to the limits of what is possible. Judge not. Value truth. Overcome the accuser / adversary. Where does the adversary Satan originate?

There is one Gospel and that is of Jesus Christ crucified unto salvation.

See... fairly quick. And I didn't manage to use foreign words no one knows, or give anyone a headache.

If you want to teach the truth, teach Jesus the Messiah crucified, died, and was resurrected on the third day. The veil is rent, sin has no more power over man.

If you want all the promises of the bible, go to the cross. Teach nothing else, there is nothing else that matters.

a reply to: AlephBet

a reply to: Akragon

In fact I would say I understand it far better then Christians do because I can see it as it is... that being not true...

Then what is the point of discussing it? But you can hardly call Encyclopedia Britannica a religious source, it's secular. And it clearly says the 3 Abrahamic faiths are monotheistic. And you cannot claim there aren't 100s of millions of gods in Hinduism, there are. Regardless of the classifications of them, if the Hindus consider them divine that makes them gods.

what does Mirriam-Webster say/

"Belief in the existence of one god. It is distinguished from polytheism. The earliest known instance of monotheism dates to the reign of Akhenaton of Egypt in the 14th century BC. Monotheism is characteristic of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, all of which view God as the creator of the world, who oversees and intervenes in human events, and as a beneficent and holy being, the source of the highest good."

Monotheism

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Are angels not divine as well? And doesn't man also have a spark of the divine?

Minor gods are the same thing as angels... and or demons...

The point is they also have a monotheistic aspect to their religion...

The one God that rules over the rest... Just as Christianity has one God and all his angels

a reply to: Akragon

Are angels not divine as well?

According to Christianity? Absolutely not, angels are created beings, in no way divine.. According to Judaism? Hell no, you would be stoned for blasphemy for teaching that in the OT. According to Islam? Hell, no. Hope you like your head attached to your neck. lol

Just as Christianity has one God and all his angels

Angels aren't divine in Christianity.

a reply to: Akragon

Don't you remember in the OT when anyone fell on their face to worship angels in the OT they told them to stand up, to only worship God?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I have seen all his videos and podcasts. He is amazing, but misses the meaning of baptism and many other symbols.

I have a simple question for you. Of the two, Gita and NT, which of the two asked their believers to give up all attachment to wealth and follow the path? Both. Which of the two has followers doing this? Only one. There are virtually no Christians who have sold everything and followed the path as a disciple. What is asked of believers between the two religions? You would be surprised to educate yourself to the topic. They are copies on nearly all levels. Just like the OT, the Vedas moved forward to the inner meaning by the end. Once they did, the meaning resolves to the same understanding as that of Christianity.

Between the two, who made Satan? Again, they each have the same characters with different names. Babel. Of the two, how to you overcome? Faith followed by the works that naturally follow. Of the two, is there salvation, rebirth, one God and so on? Yes.

Again, who divided Adam and made Satan? Have you checked the sex of the Indian God? Both, but called male. The image of God is both and neither, just as the Gita states. On all levels, the same story. The Gita helps you understand the Bible. It's that simple. It also shows you the path to overcoming the adversary and accuser. Not only this, it defines them for you as part of your own mind. To see your self in God, you must become what you see. God must see you as him. What is the work of Christ in this? The same process for God to be all in all. Both are the same.

In the end, we are arguing over the same symbolism. We do not understand what cannot be understood. At least the Gita tells you this.

a reply to: AlephBet

I have a simple question for you. Of the two, Gita and NT, which of the two asked their believers to give up all attachment to wealth and follow the path? Both.

That is a misapplication of the context of that verse. Jesus asked a large group of His followers this and 12 took up the call for discipleship. That's what disciples did at that time with their rabbis, followed them everywhere they went. That was before the resurrection and the gift of an indwelling Holy Spirit. None of the apostles taught that as Christian doctrine after Pentecost, because the Rabbi had risen and ascended to heaven. To misapply that specific context to everyone for the rest of eternity is an error in hermeneutics.

a reply to: AlephBet

I have seen all his videos and podcasts. He is amazing,

But the reason behind me linking it was to show you that no other religious text on Earth displays the ELS coding of the Torah or the heptadic structure of the text of the NT. None do, that is the fingerprint of the author, the Holy Spirit. That heptadic structure watches over every letter of every epistle, remove 1 line or word and it all falls apart.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

According to Christianity? Absolutely not, angels are created beings, in no way divine.. According to Judaism? Hell no, you would be stoned for blasphemy for teaching that in the OT. According to Islam? Hell, no. Hope you like your head attached to your neck. lol

Well... No offence brother, but all of the above are very confused religions...

Angels aren't divine in Christianity.

Angels are considered divine messengers in Christianity and Judaism...

Christ quoted psalm 82... Ye are gods... which backs up the fact that we are also divine in a sense for both religions...

Not to be confused with being God like in any sense of the word...

Don't you remember in the OT when anyone fell on their face to worship angels in the OT they told them to stand up, to only worship God?

they are servants of God... they shouldn't be worshipped... but that does not mean they are not divine...

Perhaps you should look up the word and see what it means to different cultures around the world...

Its not just God that is divine when all come from him...

a reply to: Akragon

Well... No offence brother, but all of the above are very confused religions...

No offense taken, you aren't the first, and you won't be the last. You are free to choose your own path.

Angels are considered divine messengers in Christianity and Judaism...

Yes, but that doesn't make them divine any more than a US Ambassadorship makes that person the President of the United States.

they are servants of God... they shouldn't be worshipped... but that does not mean they are not divine...

Angels are not God, they are creations of God. There is only One God. Anything else is part of creation, not the Creator.

Perhaps you should look up the word and see what it means to different cultures around the world...

That's irrelevant to what it means in Judaism and Christianity, and Islam for that matter as well.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

that is hardly the same...

As I've said, IF we are created by the divine just as angels are, we also are a piece of the divine...

Even as peter said (IF one is to believe it was peter)

We are partakers of the divine nature... to partake is to "take part in" or even be characterized as being said word...

IF ye be "filled by the holy ghost" as you Christians like to put it... You are divine, or at least the spirit within is



Just to get this straight... to you divine = God

Nothing more, nothing less?

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: AlephBet

I have a simple question for you. Of the two, Gita and NT, which of the two asked their believers to give up all attachment to wealth and follow the path? Both.

That is a misapplication of the context of that verse. Jesus asked a large group of His followers this and 12 took up the call for discipleship. That's what disciples did at that time with their rabbis, followed them everywhere they went. That was before the resurrection and the gift of an indwelling Holy Spirit. None of the apostles taught that as Christian doctrine after Pentecost, because the Rabbi had risen and ascended to heaven. To misapply that specific context to everyone for the rest of eternity is an error in hermeneutics.

Matthew 18

21 Yeshua said to him, “If you want to be perfect, sell what you own. Give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then follow me!”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad because he owned a lot of property.

Speaking to a rich man about being perfect. In the Gita, once a person is enlightened to the path, they can then gain wealth with faith, much like Abraham. The difference is what they would then do with that wealth. It is very specific.

Luke 18 is the same. Mark 10 the same.

Matthew 19

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.

1 Timothy 6:7-10

For we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

The Gita rests the error in desire. What do you read form the entire Bible on the subject? The same. The Vedas came first.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I never implied they were incorrect. They hide the truth for a reason. This is not about Adam as much as the conviction of the enemy of God. Death is done away with in the Bible. In the Gita, things are destroyed and are remade. The same lessons apply, but the intent of God is revealed in the Bible to the end of the process of rebirth and death. This is the Mystery held by God from the beginning, revealed in Ephesians.

We must question it all based on the facts of the names being hidden, Yahweh proclaiming himself God, making Satan and the nations deceived in Revelation. It must all be questioned if we are to overcome. From the whole, we unwind the parts to overcome. Who accuses and destroys man? Yahweh. Who made Satan. Yahweh. Who divided Adam? Yahweh. It is either THE deception, or it is the will of the Father. Either way, we get a rich tapestry of truth from the Gita that matches everything we know about the Bible.

From the Gita, we know the Lord is the soul of man. He regulates us. We also have an accuser (conscience). The gita tells you who the Lord is. Until you see it, you will reflect the accuser and adversary as a mirror. Overcome.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Yes, but that doesn't make them divine any more than a US Ambassadorship makes that person the President of the United States.

You are now entering into a profound territory. Of the false religions you know, how many claim to be influenced by angels? The Bible is included in that list. One of the complaints Yahweh had with Israel is that their prophets were prophesying words he did not say. We were not given names of course of these prophets. We know that angels had fallen and that Yahweh disciplined angles with punishment. We even have an account of Yahweh planning a war on Heaven. Where else do we know this war? In Revelation when the deceiver is thrown out.

Here is his war plan.

Isaiah 24

21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.

From this war plan, we can know the difference between Jesus and Yahweh. Jesus WAS, IS and IS TO COME. Yahweh Was, IS NOT, and IS TO COME. Satan must be released after the day of rest (1000 years).

As we debate this, I simply show you the need for both documents. In the Gita, we do not get anything other than Love from the God of Love, along with a great deal of biblical wording and symbolism. The Gita came first in History.

If the Bible contains the deception, I think you look there to find it. If the Gita reflects the God of Love, it's own words should prove it to those with open ears.

You know me well. Why would I be moving this direction?

Beside God, are there powers and principalities? Yes. Are there rulers in heavenly realms? Yes. The Gita fills you in on the other realms as well. It's a profound document, as are the others (Vedas - Upanishads - Dhammapada - Confucius - Tao). Of these compared to the Bible, only the Bible has Yahweh. He is a self-righteous accuser and adversary, willing to shed blood. What do you find in the other documents? The same struggle, yet a God of Love clearly outlined with no hidden agenda.

a reply to: Akragon

As I've said, IF we are created by the divine just as angels are, we also are a piece of the divine...

The Christian and Jewish view of God is that He is transcendent above all His creation. The would be a Pantheistic view that everything God created is part of Him. Neither Judaism or Christianity is Pantheistic.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

As I've said, IF we are created by the divine just as angels are, we also are a piece of the divine...

The Christian and Jewish view of God is that He is transcendent above all His creation. The would be a Pantheistic view that everything God created is part of Him. Neither Judaism or Christianity is Pantheistic.

You keep adding labels without understanding what im saying... Everything does not need a label...

nor does everything and everyone fall under one...

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

The Christian and Jewish view of God is that He is transcendent above all His creation. The would be a Pantheistic view that everything God created is part of Him. Neither Judaism or Christianity is Pantheistic.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

You are disagreeing with Paul on this. Even the Gita is not truly pantheistic. It believes in one supreme being, with all other beings in grades below this one being working their way to oneness with that being. It claims that sin separates the creation from the divinity and transcendence of the divine being of creation.

1 Corinthians 15

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

What separates the Bible? It claims to stop the process and save creation from the loop of entropy and rebirth. Again, it's the mystery of Ephesians. This does not deny the direct revelation we get from the Gita, nor does it explain how seekers gain union as a baptism into the Spirit. Christianity proclaims this same divine union in baptism. It's all the same.

Atonement IS At One Ment.