The God Dilemma - Choice Between Two Undesirable Outcomes

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Condemnation before investigation. Your tagline denies your use of it.

It appears you don't understand what Edmund is saying. In layman's terms he is saying "rejecting something without first studying it".

I have studied heresies of the early church, I've read 5 volumes of Irenaeus "Against Heresies", I know the family trees of the Alexandrian Codecies versus the Antioch manuscript, the Textus Receptus. You are the one who should investigate and study what the first Christians had to say about Gnosticism, start with Irenaeus, it's a free pdf.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I would need to know a few things before I could say why you see my view as heretical.

Do you see Yahweh as Lord Adonai, as well as Jesus?

Do you see Baptism as involution into the waters of life, or just a symbol that has no central meaning beyond that of an ordinance?

Do you have a problem with Yahweh making Satan, then using him as the object of our own enmity and judgment as an enemy?

Do you have a problem with the names of God being washed away from our perception?

Can you see that Elohim and Ruach Elohim are the ones saying, "Let us make man in our image," or do you see Yahweh as Lord, the same as Adonai / Christ, the same as Father and Holy Spirit?

Do you see God as in and through all things, or a separated entity? Pantheism, or a direct and personal anthropomorphic God?

Your presuppositions will be founded on these questions and more that I have not asked.

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: NOTurTypical

I would need to know a few things before I could say why you see my view as heretical.

Do you see Yahweh as Lord Adonai, as well as Jesus?

Lord and Adonai are the same word. One is English and one is Hebrew. YHWH is the only time God gives or reveals a proper Name, It's the Name of God. There are over 100 titles He declares for Himself, but only 1 Name. And Jesus/Yeshua is His Son, conceived of the Holy Spirit, God Himself who took upon flesh and walked amongst us, the Son.

Do you see Baptism as involution into the waters of life, or just a symbol that has no central meaning beyond that of an ordinance?

I see it as symbolic, the public identification with the burial and resurrection of Christ. I always say baptism doesn't save us, it's a ceremony saved people do.

Do you have a problem with Yahweh making Satan, then using him as the object of our own enmity and judgment as an enemy?

To a degree, I see God/YHWH/Jesus/the Holy Spirit as making the angel who when he fell took upon the title of "ha-satan" (satan), it again is a title, not a name. It means "the accuser" in Hebrew. Lucifer is a bad Greek to Latin translation so I have no clue what his "name" is. But more to answer your question I don't see God as making anything evil at the time He created it, but "satan" fell of his own doing due to his pride.

Do you have a problem with the names of God being washed away from our perception?

I don't exactly know what you are asking I'm sorry. There is only one Name, all the others are titles. Example, Barack Obama is a name, President of The United States, or Commander in Chief are his titles, not his name. Same with YHWH.

Can you see that Elohim and Ruach Elohim are the ones saying, "Let us make man in our image," or do you see Yahweh as Lord, the same as Adonai / Christ, the same as Father and Holy Spirit?

Elohim is just the plural of "El" which is a generic "God" in Hebrew and Aramaic. It literally means "Gods", and when it speaks of the Triune God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob in the OT it always appears in a singular sentence construct. It's a Hebrew grammatical error, when an OT writer is using the same word for false pagan gods (small G, and plural) it always appears in the plural context. Ruach means "wind/breath/spirit", or ruach Elohim means "spirit of God", and that is the "Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost", it's still YHWH, and it is the same Holy Spirit that conceived Jesus and raised Him from the dead. The same Holy Spirit that indwells every born-again believer.

Do you see God as in and through all things, or a separated entity? Pantheism, or a direct and personal anthropomorphic God?

Not Pantheistic, God is separate and transcendent above all His creation, but for the believer He sends the Holy Spirit to indwell and lead in the paths of righteousness. Something that blew away the NT apostles because in the OT the Holy Spirit would come upon a prophet ("The Spirit of the Lord was upon me...") then leave again. He never indwelled a person as He does after the resurrection and ascension.

Your presuppositions will be founded on these questions and more that I have not asked.

And I answered them as concisely as I could without writing a ton of text.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

PREMISE OF THIS POST:Confucius, Buddha and many others were produced between the time of Malachi 4 and the first century. That 500 year period laid a foundation for the coming of the Son.

One more question for you. What foundation did Zarababal put in place between Zacheriah 3 and Matthew 1? That of the coming temple. What books were created in that time?


Thank you for answering the questions. You already know my view. I choose to take the names of Genesis 1 and apply them to the family. Luke 3 tells us that Adam is the Son of God. Genesis 1 tells us how to identify the Father outlined by Jesus in the New Testament. He also identifies the Mother (Spirit). The root names from Hebrew for Mother and Father then show us how the Alpeh Bet writes the Word. Adam is the Word, or Son of God. From the time the Elohim engage creation until Jesus rises to new life in baptism, there is no pleasure in the Son. God states his pleasure in the Son by giving him the Holy Spirit for the first time at baptism.

From Genesis 3 until that moment, we know that the Son is being raised. Baptism is involution, or rebirth into the waters of life. The symbol has a higher meaning than that of a simple ordinance of symbolism. It is a symbol that literally means resurrection from the dead back into life. As 1 Peter 3 outlines, this baptism saves us as a representation of the beasts in water from the flood. For Jesus to be fully man, he was required to participate in the whole of creation from the foundation.

His blood was first shed by Yahweh. Satan then accused him. You can know this Lord as the mind of man with one simple search of the Bhagava Gida. The reason I return to the older texts is simple. Hebrews 11 shows us where to look for a definition of faith and who we have faith in.

Hebrews 11

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

As the Son of God yourself (Adam), you are cut from the same loaf of bread. The ancients knew the secret to salvation. Jesus told us the same message. Look beyond the manifest and into the unmanifest, which is inside your self. Knowing the self is the key to knowing God through the Son (body you occupy). He was, is and will be the example to us. Yahweh was, Is NOT, and will come again. Check Revelation to identify the accuser, deceiver and destroyer from his father, Abaddon. The mind of Adam has a higher mind and accuser. Sin separates.

The entire story is parallel between texts like the Dhammapada, the Gita and the Upanishads. Before judging me, I challenge you to listen to the entire Gita.

Jesus came for the sick, leading them into a mode ready to engage the higher nature. For those of us who are not sick, we already have the higher nature. If you will not listen to the entire Gita, at least listen to this one.

Election is real. The book starts with the war to overcome. Check my latest thread. What did Jesus come to show us from the process of baptism? Who did he make proclamation to in 1 Peter 3. Listening to the Gita, you will find the root of all religion. You will find the Lord of the process and you will find the reason for the Son of God in man (Adam / Luke 3).

The Father prepares us to meet the Son (John 6:65). The Son is you and all other beings. He taught Jesus, which is you and me and everyone else. The key is in this book, which then unlocks the Bible mystery in full. As I make my new threads on the chapters of this scripture, realize one thing. Confucius, Buddha and many others were produced between the time of Malachi 4 and the first century. That 500 year period laid a foundation for the coming of the Son.

One more question for you. What foundation did Zarababal put in place between Zacheriah 3 and Matthew 1? That of the coming temple. What books were created in that time?

Dhammapada - Confucius - Gita - Upanishads and Tao. All are consistent with their message of the Supreme Good and Supreme Creator as singular. If you think they are worshiping many gods, you are incorrect. If you listen, your heart will tell you if it's accurate or not. I challenge you to see the foundation laid. Judge it for yourself. To know the Eastern symbolism, you must know all regions by their narrative of it.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

What do you hear in this between 1:49:45 - 1:53:30?

More specifically, what do you hear in this between 1:53:30 - 1:55:30?

"God ended his work and he rested..."

"Beyond the Tree of Life and Time..."

"King of Kings...Lord of Lords...God of Gods..."

Did you realize Hindus worship this God as a single God?

Is this ringing true to you yet? Do you hear his voice?

a reply to: AlephBet

Hinduism is in no way compatible with Christianity or Judaism.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: AlephBet

Hinduism is in no way compatible with Christianity or Judaism.

"...everlasting ignorance. That principle is condemnation before investigation."

originally posted by: AlephBet

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: AlephBet

Hinduism is in no way compatible with Christianity or Judaism.

"...everlasting ignorance. That principle is condemnation before investigation."

I've been studying apologetics and world religions/heresies for the better part of 15 years. The statement above is FROM investigation. Right now on my bookshelves are no less that 30 books on these subjects.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: AlephBet

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: AlephBet

Hinduism is in no way compatible with Christianity or Judaism.

"...everlasting ignorance. That principle is condemnation before investigation."

I've been studying apologetics and world religions/heresies for the better part of 15 years. The statement above is FROM investigation. Right now on my bookshelves are no less that 30 books on these subjects.

"If men thought of God as much as they think of the world, who would not attain liberation?” Upinashads

All of those are written without knowledge of the symbols they fail to define. This is the problem with ending the search and calling it the idol of theology. Pride is not the child, eager to learn.

As long as the temple still dies and is destroyed, we are not finished searching. Fear can only judge.

"But if a man finds the support of the Invisible and Ineffable, he is free from fear,” say the Upanishads.

a reply to: AlephBet

Basic example, there are millions of gods in Hinduism, in Christianity and Judaism there is one God. Hinduism and Christianity are not compatible on just basic theology proper forget anything else. The first things aren't compatible.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Actually Hinduism has many minor gods, and a trinity for as their major deity...

in that sense they are quite compatible...

even the bible states that there are lower entities such as angel and demons, which could be considered gods...

Not to mention the god of the OT of course... but we disagree on that

In any case they are quite similar

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: AlephBet

Basic example, there are millions of gods in Hinduism, in Christianity and Judaism there is one God. Hinduism and Christianity are not compatible on just basic theology proper forget anything else. The first things aren't compatible.

This is a misconception. There is one God over all beings. Brahman. Brahman

Again, your search, as was mine, founded on fear of the adversary and accuser. Overcome them and liberate yourself to see the God who is not worshiped in temples built by men.

www.hinduwebsite.com...

If you skim the trail I am leaving behind, you will miss it, still locked in fear and judgment of what you do not understand. Yahweh will lock you in fear. The point of the Bible is to show you how to overcome by rising above the demigod. The God of Love is not based on fear.

a reply to: AlephBet

That isn't true. Tell me this supreme god didn't create hundreds of millions of other gods. You can' because that is the truth. That's why it's completely incompatible with Christianity, we have One God, and only One God. Everything else He created isn't divine. He alone is. (monotheism)

Not true for Hinduism. "Lesser god", "greater god", "Supreme god" = multiple gods, (polytheism)

a reply to: Akragon

In any case they are quite similar

Absolutely not, you can't even get past the first doctrine (theology proper) and they be similar. Hinduism is polytheistic, Christianity and Judaism are monotheistic.

"polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism characterizes virtually all religions other than Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which share a common tradition of monotheism, the belief in one God."

"Polytheism", Encyclopedia Britannica

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Oh dear...

How can you say such things when Christianity Has "Father, Son, Holy spirit"...

These three are one, just as Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva are one... Parts of the God head...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Oh dear...

How can you say such things when Christianity Has "Father, Son, Holy spirit"...

These three are one, just as Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva are one... Parts of the God head...

"polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism characterizes virtually all religions other than Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which share a common tradition of monotheism, the belief in one God."

"Polytheism" ~ Encyclopedia Britannica

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Just because you give something a label does not make it true...

There is absolutely no difference between the trinities of these two religions...

Christianity has a way of turning something that is obvious into what they want it to be...

Father, Son, and spirit is no less polytheistic then Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva...

They claim the same thing... that three equal one...

Other religions are allowed to play the same song and dance as Christianity does if they choose

a reply to: Akragon

Just because you give something a label does not make it true...

I could just as simply say to you that just because you don't understand the Trinity doesn't make it polytheism.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Your view is founded on misconception. If you would listen to the chapters of the Gita, you would have a much better perception of the other half of humanity you condemn. Judging from the fruit of their faith, it is solid. The character of the average adherent is of an extremely higher nature as compared to the average materialistic Christian. No matter what faith you examine, the world creeps in. There is no doubt we are all still sinners, divided from our true natures.

Again, you have a great deal to learn in the are of judgement if you are seeking to live up to the standards of either religion. I can only say this as I emerge from the same fixed mindset. My eyes are much more open today than they were a year ago. The further I explore the diverse faiths of the Rainbow Elohim promised in Genesis 9, the more I see that Abrahamic faith is only one of a broad range of diverse nations with faith for the supreme. We have much to learn.

I simply tell you to overcome being the adversary and accuser. According to the Gita, you are judged as you judge. No difference between this and Jesus words.

Your eyes open if you overcome the accuser / adversary. That's all I can tell you.

a reply to: AlephBet

And if I read the Quran I'll learn that God has no sons and Jesus didn't die on the cross, it was Judas. Or I can read the Book of Mormon and learn something new. Heck I can read the Necromonicon and learn that satan is god. They all cannot be correct when they have exclusive claims to truth. A cannot be true and false in the same situation, that's a massive fallacy.

No difference between this and Jesus words.

Actually Jesus said not to judge merely on appearance, but to make judgments based on righteousness. I've never judged you, I've never met you, I've only judged what you have said. And 90% of it is wholly un-Biblical. But that's your choice.