Wild horses to be sold and slaughtered!!!

Originally posted by Valhall
Anyone who can ask what's the difference between eating a horse and eating a cow hasn't really paid attention to either one.

The most beautiful land-based animal in my mind is the horse. Though there are certain Asian beliefs that the more exquisite the animal the more desired the dish, I am neither Asian, nor do I in anyway understand this thinking.

For those of us that don't mind eating meat, we do so for sustenance, not "spirit" nor "nature" of the beast. We the eat the ugliest and the domiciled...because that seems the thing to do.

To take a spirit as beautiful and awesome as a horse, whether it be maverick or draft, and denegrate it to a meal is just absolute beyond me.

lol, how can this be true when the idea of beauty is subjective to the individual. are ducks not a beautiful creature? how about any number of fish species? or is that diferent b/c they are fish? I am just curious as to what you enjoy or in other words proclaim to be an ungly animal that meets your aproval for consumtion.

Originally posted by duh squared
Cows, as all animals, are sacred to me. I even want the critters like the one in your avatar to be free and happy...and Dude, your avatar may cause me nightmares!

I agree with all you have said in this thread anyhow instar, you seem very level-headed to me...

Thanks Duhsquared, I appreciate it. And lol, nightmares are born of fear of the unknown and of the imagination. Dear ol monty (the python in my avatar) is as placid an animal as you could hope to find, and a wonderful pet. Snakes get a bad rap i think, most folk dont have diect experience with them, so without that appreciation for them, wild imaginings and predjustice prevail. Admittedly im a bit like that with Spiders, they freak me out! but im workin on it, they are fascinating and incredibly adaptive creatures too.

Originally posted by just_a_pilot
Horses love what they do?????????? huh? Guess you haven't "BROKE" one yet. Oh they just LOVE that. Just so they can LOVE you riding them. Hmm maybe broke horses should be used in a Rodeo. Wont be as fun but hey. They love it. Just so they can LOVE you riding them.

They love it? LMAO

Oh man, animal beaten into submission now loves it. HAHAH ok im with ya.


[edit on 12/13/2004 by just_a_pilot]

Well, I was speaking of older, mellow horses. They have to be pretty unshakable to the work my mom does with them, but yes they are capable of that, genetics-wise.
My mom has a new baby horse in the process of being "broke"...I wasn't saying a wild mustang is going to look after a child with downs syndrom, but horses in general are very physically strong animals, and with the right bit of experience, can do very theraputic work.

I personally don't care much for being around horses...all the sweat, leather, whips, maneur... if I wanted that stuff I would head to a fetish club!

Originally posted by instar
Who says they are for loving pleasure etc? If your going to god bash read your own bible , it dosent say eat these but not these because i hath made them pretty.

I am back from my smoke and cry. We Indians are pretty complicated people. Maybe that's why we see the horse (and the white man) as a brother. They are both very complex too. I want to tell you a story. This could take awhile, so sit down. Chief Joseph (of the Nez Perce, the Nation that gave us the Appaloosa horse) was talking to General Miles (of the Cavalry, the horse-mounted American army that slaughtered millions of the American Indian people), who had given him a Bible. General Miles asked if Joseph had read the book. Joseph answered,

'It is a good book, General Miles. You should live by it'.

You see, we read this book. And it tells us:

The carcasses of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you; every one that toucheth them shall be unclean. Leviticus 11:26

Now theological arguments can be made about grace and so on. But this Ordinance of G-d is something that Moslems, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and Native Americans- amongst others- agree upon. That is a miracle in and of itself. Our civilization could not exist without the contributions made by the horse before the age of oil. We owe the horse a debt of gratitude. She deserves better treatment! She deserves Respect. And Freedom.

There is more. Many of us are meat-eaters. I need to start a thread about Mad Cow Disease and hunting. And another one about tapeworms in undercooked meat and salmon. We're having to warn the Elders in the Nations now. You should warn the hunters in your families. Many of the deer, elk, and so on are now infected with prions, thanks to contaminated winter feeding programs. You see, the way we feed our animals and treat them eventually comes back to us, as karma. We should not feed a deer a cow's brain. There is a reason for The Law of G-d, and His dietary laws. They are meant to protect humans from terrible infections caused by bacteria, viruses, prions and worms. Horses are beautiful, but worm-ridden. We shoot them up with Ivermectin to kill the worms. You eat that meat rare, you die. Ever talked to someone with a tapeworm in their brain? That's what loco means. Is that beautiful? No. Eating horsemeat is a sin against yourself, from a scientific and medical standpoint. There is another miracle: scientists also agree with religion on this one.

The great difference between the Indian and the newcomer is that the old Indians never made a prisoner of any animal. I am speaking of the laws of my own tribe. Confinement brings plagues.

The horses need predators. We also respect the Bear, the Wolf, and the Painter (lion). This predation is the way of the Great Creator. We may not understand it, but we have the wisdom not to interfere. In lieu of predators, they need management and protection. Not exploitation. The Indians are the ones to do this. We are the protectors of these horses. Give us permission to care for them. We make great Rangers

We do hunt the animals that our Elders instruct us to, in the way they instruct us. Our Ancestors learned in the Neolithic that horsemeat was unclean- and, that the horse is the Friend of Man.

By the way, we don't 'break' horses. We gentle them. An apple works better than a whip. That is a trade secret of mine.

I'm reminded of a saying by another famous Indian, this one from my tribe:

"Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms."

Leave the horse to the Destiny the Great Creator wrote for her, and keep her off your plate. And out of your pet food factory. You and your pets will be the healthier for it.

Because, like the cow, she is not without Power.

[edit on 13-12-2004 by Chakotay]

Excepting your bible quote, I agree with you chakota. mans interference and mistreatment of the enviroment and animals cause these things like madcow disease and infected deer. I dont eat horsemeat , nor lately cow or pig. fish and chicken I accept having been raised on it. By your bible quote above chicken is unclean too. Personally im working towards a diet free of any flesh, not based on any bible words nor any particular beleif in the sacredness of any animal, but purely for health.
Today no animal is truley "clean". Enviromental pollution has spread through the great food chain from the largest animal to the smallest. pollution is like fire, no fire in the forest burns this tree and spares the other. We have polluted the entire earth save a few patches, the water, the air. Everthing we eat poisons us, because the food is poisoned from the earth.
People eat all kinds of creatures, those of us who remain hunters, far from the pollution, are healthy. They dont feed what they eat with steroids, drugs and other animals of like kind and unnatural diets.
I hear of feedlot animals being fed groundup roadkill in your country. This is unnatural, no cow ever ate a raccoon. Disease transmission must be rife. Even feeding dogs and cats with these things is unhealthy as you say.
However I see no disrepect for healthy horse fed to a dog after natural death. As you say, all must eat, even the worm. In the great cycle of life all which is born of the earth returns to the earth. The dead are food for others, whos dung feeds the plants which in turn feed the animals on which we feed. Nature is wonderful Chakota, im glad you much respect for it.

Originally posted by instar
By your bible quote above chicken is unclean too...

However I see no disrepect for healthy horse fed to a dog after natural death. As you say, all must eat, even the worm. In the great cycle of life all which is born of the earth returns to the earth. The dead are food for others, whos dung feeds the plants which in turn feed the animals on which we feed. Nature is wonderful Chakota, im glad you much respect for it.

That Bible quote only refers to hoofed animals. The Bible specifically allows birds, ruminants (except Eagles, Buzzards, Crows and so on) and scaled fish as food. We Indians eat differently than the Bible, but not eating the Horse is something we agree on. We always bury our down horses where I come from. I can see letting dogs eat them if they fall down on the range, but not as in those photos above, slaughtered and SOLD to Soylent Green to be canned- sure I'm irrational about this. What I see worse is the brutalization of the Man in those photos. How can he bring his little girl to work? How can he not be damaged by what he does? How can he remain Human?

There was a famous plane crash in Alaska years ago. One guy died. His buddy ate him, while an Indian kid watched and fasted. They were rescued. To us, some meat is just off limits. We'd rather starve.

James Bond to Felix Leiter in an Ian Fleming novel:
He disagreed with something that ate him.

You see, we take food for granted. Food has power. We need to study it like an enemy. Sometimes its effects are delayed. What we put in our bodies is very likely to kill us. Sooner or later. We need to be producing food with respect, preparing it with care (there's tricks you gotta know for every food or it can hurt you), we need to be eating it in a way that will benefit us. Our pets need the same respect. I used to take care of an old medicine man who lost his wife. His wife had cats. These are prohibited as pets by Cherokee law. The cat scratched its poop in the litter box, then scratched her leg. One little nick. She was dead in a week. If we feed our pets crap, it will harm us. The dog eats a sick horse, he licks his rear, he licks his fur, we pet him and we pick our teeth. It all comes back. That is karma. I make my dog's food:

4 c. rice 9 c. water
1/4 c. oatmeal 1 tsp. salt
1 T. eggshell, ground fine (about 2 eggshells)

Put all the above in a large cooker and bring to a boil, then add, while stirring:

2 T. cilantro, chopped fine
3 oz. liver, chopped fine
8 oz. ground meat, fish or fowl good enough for a human (not horse)
3 T. corn oil 2 eggs, beaten
2 clove garlic, chopped fine 2 c. vegetables (carrots, broccoli, cauliflower, etc.), chopped fine

Stir, turn heat to low, and cook for about 20 minutes until all water is absorbed. Then spread out in flat tupperware containers, cool and cut into half cup squares. When feeding, add 1 tsp. supplement mix per 30 lbs of dog weight:

Supplement Mix:

1 c. brewer's yeast 1 c. wheat germ
1/8 c. powdered kelp

Worm dog regularly.

See the liver up there? Liver wrecks the human thyroid gland. Dogs are made to eat it. If you ever raise or hunt your own meat, sooner or later you will go vegetarian. Then you'll almost die from starvation, and you'll start to eat a little meat again. Just a little, with thankfullness and full realization that it is dirty, nasty, dangerous stuff.

I like to fish. You have to be careful with them, too. Freshwater ones, even Salmon, can kill you quick if you don't handle them right. Fresh salmon that has not been frozen if eaten as Sushi (sake), ceviche, gravlaks or cold smoked can end you. They've all got mercury now from coal burning.

Enough ugly. Let's talk beauty. Wild horses running free on unfenced range along a creek lined with cottonwoods.

[edit on 13-12-2004 by Chakotay]

Well i have been looking around to see if theres anything that we as people can do to help these amazing animals.
I came across the *American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign * they have a pitition to help stop this action so if you want to try and do something about this then please start here,

=1&sign[memberID]=601059727&sign[partner_userID]=601059727]Save the horses




[edit on 13-12-2004 by asala]

Chakotay, you are so right about the kinship we should feel toward the horse! I have always had a special reverence for the Nez Perce and their bond with their Appaloosas......I read that when retreating from the cavalry, the tribe was forced to cross a treacherous river....many of their horses drowned while saving their human 'companions'.

My only remaining 'retiree' is an Appaloosa in his twenties.....He was never 'broken' and rarely outsmarted..... yet we came to quite an agreeable arrangement without violence. He will be quietly buried beside his former companions when his time comes...no dog food, no glue factory.

Asala, those are the same folks who have been fighting the BLM's treatment of the wild herds since the early 70's....without them, the herds would have already been a thing of the past......

As much as we love our "wild west" heritage, we should set aside somewhere to allow preservation of this icon of the west. (Even those who think horsemeat is a dietary alternative should be able to agree that the wild herds don't need to be eaten!!)

The bottom line of the whole issue is that the BLM is giving you the opportunity to do something other than complain. Adopt them.

Yes, horses are magnificent. So is a cow. But they are livestock.

It is about economics and reality. Should it be so? Sure. Why stand behind the horse? I guess because its bigger than the three toed newt?

I would rather have one of my horses sent off to slaughter rather than suffer through as some like to say 'old age'.

If you have not seen a horse that gets that far with a back bowed and barely walking then you don't understand the problem of keeping the animal going. They are not loving life. They are existing. The expense is huge.

If you have a few horses and do not check on them EVERY day you will have a huge huge problem on your hands. If one dies and you don't know about it very quickly you now have a contaminated paddok. It bloats, it stinks and it WILL kill the others. Better to kill them so that others may live.

Nope, Im not going to hire a dozer to dig a ditch because if it is urgent I will put it down and if it is near sell it to the renderer. If you want it thats great. Pay the same as I would get for selling it for slaughter and its all yours. Sounds cold. But realize that farming is a fend for yourself business. You don't get Social Security when you 'retire'. NONE.

Its no different with cattle. But when you think of a cow or a horse as livestock and what they are valuable for then MOST people, YES MOST, tend to put more energy into cattle because of the investment......not the love.

I find it great that you can just go sign a petition. Wonderful. Adopt one instead of signing a piece of paper.

Once you rope it if you get close enough to get it. Well, enjoy.


[edit on 12/13/2004 by just_a_pilot]

Originally posted by just_a_pilot
Yes, horses are magnificent. So is a cow. But they are livestock.

It is about economics and reality. Should it be so? Sure.

I should just walk away. He is supporting us signing the petition, and us adopting. That is a miracle.

But I can't.

I am going to print out just_a_pilot's last post and this post on a piece of recycled paper and hang it in my tack room. Here, in the living room of the world, the yin/yang division between modern Americans and the Native Indian stands drawn in indelible, if electronic ink.

Live stock. It's mine. It's property. I control it. One thousand years ago they did this to the ancestor of the cow. One hundred and forty years ago, they still did this with humans. One hundred years ago they continued to do this with women. One can still see this today. They are all about power over and control. They would do it to the birds if the birds let them.

I hold a degree in Economics. And any honest economist will tell you, economics has nothing whatsoever to do with reality. It has to do with imagination, and oftentimes the lack thereof.

You see, money is nothing more and nothing less than plastic poker chips.

To an Indian, it has no intrinsic value.

There is a different way of living. A way of co-operation with nature for long-term mutual biological and cultural benefit, not 'control' of nature for short-term personal 'profit'- whatever that is. A way of co-operating with other humans and other nations for mutual benefit. A way of mutual respect.

Why am I bothering to say this? If the Modern American fails, we too will suffer loss. If he continues to 'rule' more and more of the world with his callous, unscientific attitudes of property, profit, and control untempered by love, caring, sharing, and freedom- then the karmic end will adversely effect all humans, plants and animals.

We witness this karma as disease, pollution, extinction, and war.

This kind of karma is insidious and completely automatic. There is no defense. It can only be averted by repentance, repair, and restoration of habitat and the replacing of the spirit of competition and control with that of co-operation and freedom- before it is too late.

The old Indians say we've all gone through this once before, when cosmic karma reset the clock back to bows-and-arrows. The horse cannot warn you about these things. So I will give voice to the voiceless:

Be kind, and very wise. Work together for the benefit of all beings. We will help you with all our hearts.

We can imagine a way to save the wild horses. We could probably even imagine it to be profitable.

How we treat the least of us determines our greatness. And in the end, our very survival. The horse is not without power. And the Indian desires no karmic revenge. Save yourselves, while you can. Please.

I am done speaking.





[edit on 13-12-2004 by Chakotay]

My oginanili, Chakotay . I have said the same since my first post. Perhapse we need to walk the Cherokee trail again. Together this time my udo.

I have not forgotten the face of my father. Have you Chakotay?



[edit on 12/13/2004 by just_a_pilot]

I'm so sick of this kind of thing. We as humans think that we can do what we wish and rape the world of it's remarkable creatures. Everything has to do with human survival and money. It's always about money. Sickening. Animals don't come back when their extinct. And the number is astounding of those that do become extinct each year. Yeah we put rules and regulations on animals that people recognize so we stay happy(public).

Problem is the utter ignorance of human overbreeding. The more humans the more space and resources we need and the less of the natural world we will have. What then? Nah, nobody ever cares about "then". Just what they can have now.

Well said I-see_you ! Couldnt agree more! Chakotay, my apology, I just realised I had made your name wrong, no disrespect intended.

Extinction has happended long before the humans evolved. Where are the dinosaurs? I never have witnessed one. Have you?

Humans live by money. It does not matter if you are paying with rocks or shells or the print of the Government.

Trade you a pearl for a flint. Hmmmmm


[edit on 12/13/2004 by just_a_pilot]

Extinction has happended long before the humans evolved. Where are the dinosaurs? I never have witnessed one. Have you?

Yes i have crocodile's are seen as dinosraurs,

Originally posted by asala

Extinction has happended long before the humans evolved. Where are the dinosaurs? I never have witnessed one. Have you?

Yes i have

crocodile's are seen as dinosraurs,

Turles too, and the komodo monitor.

Originally posted by orfeo8
I support horses being sold for human consumption. If nature didn't want us to kill off everything

There you have it folks...that's the mentality right there that has us having to "save" species by zoo breeding in order for the species to survive...I'll just shake my head because that's all one can do...... those that agree with the above statement, will not understand no matter what anyone says...they are incapable of doing so and to expect them to be able to go beyond their capacity for understanding, is asking the impossible!

Originally posted by I See You
I'm so sick of this kind of thing. We as humans think that we can do what we wish and rape the world of it's remarkable creatures.

Recipe: Horse and Pepper Pie
1 pound ground horse meat
2 cups sweet red peppers, with sauce
1 onion, chopped
1 (4.5 ounce) can sliced mushrooms, drained
1 cup shredded sharp Cheddar cheese
1 recipe pastry for a 9 inch double crust pie

Place peppers, including liquid, into food processor; pulse until
peppers are cut into small pieces.

Brown horse meat and onions. Add peppers, mushrooms, and cheese to
meat mixture. Spoon into bottom crust. Cover with top crust, and
seal the edges.

Bake at 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) until crust is brown, and
pie is heated through.

Serves 8

Wow.

Thats all I can say. How small minded ones views are.

Yes of course we humans have to eat. But there is such a thing as respect, and being humane.

That is what makes us human.!

The way we eat and how we eat are all a process, its how one goes about it.

Oh I know many a good recipe. just u2me

Why I dont think that they should just be taking wild horses for no real reason, I dont discondone eating horses. All animals are food somewhere. Understand that many cultures eat different animals, and many different animals aren't taboo to eat in certain cultures. You could order cat or dog in some asian countries, as its not something thats taboo to it. And the same with horse, people indifferent cultures eat horse just as someone would eat a cow or a pig.