Detroit burger joint shows it’s possible to pay workers $15 an hour and still make money

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

So, conservatives don't care about others....

Hmmmm, I gave over $10k in donations this year alone. How much did you give.....on your own accord.

Basically, many of you are saying that you need a college degree if you want to...be able to live.

Well, it wasn't so long ago that it was, 'you need to graduate from high school if you want to make a living!' Then most people started doing that. So then a high school education has become meaningless. Now it's, 'you need to graduate from college if you want to make a living!' Let's hope everyone doesn't actually do that, or else you're definitely going to need your associates...and god forbid everyone starts doing that, or else you're going to need your masters...then a doctorate...just to actually survive and be able to have a family and/or live reasonably...

See, so the very standard you set implies that many people aren't doing it...and are just screwed...because if most people start actually meeting the standard, that standard becomes meaningless, and so the standard artificially is raised...so tons of people need to be #ed and unable to live, no matter what, because if that is not the case the standard raises.

originally posted by: TheJourney

Basically, many of you are saying that you need a college degree if you want to...be able to live.

Not true. There are many jobs available that do not require a college degree but may require a trade. I have found that people do not want to work in a 'factory' and feel that this is beneath them. Too many people who should not have gone to college went and now have useless degrees that do not address our labor requirements.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: TheJourney

Basically, many of you are saying that you need a college degree if you want to...be able to live.

Not true. There are many jobs available that do not require a college degree but may require a trade. I have found that people do not want to work in a 'factory' and feel that this is beneath them. Too many people who should not have gone to college went and now have useless degrees that do not address our labor requirements.

It should be a right of passage. Graduate high school and work fast food, waitressing, plumbers helper, dishwasher, busboy, landscaping..whatever. After a couple of years, you move up to call center/office work or factory work or some skilled trade...you do that for a few years and then have the option to stay there or move on to some other better skilled work. There's always something to look forward to, there's always the next batch of workers to take over, the future is always bright for everyone. Utopia!

a reply to: Grovit

I didn't go to college (that i still attend, im still new to college) until after i was a felon and off of supervised probation. I wasn't intending to make you feel bad about it, i dont. I don't think what i did was wrong, I accept that i made a decision to break a law (no matter how ridiculous) that i knew could get me in trouble and it did. When asked by potential employers or my probation officer (when i had one) of course i do say that i feel bad about what i did and accept responsibility yadayada.

All i ask of society is that after doing my stay in jail, paying my fines, and completing my probation i be allowed as much of a chance as those equally qualified for a job as me. I'm not asking for special treatment, just the same as anyone else. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation, but it just doesn't work that way.

I understand that you didnt decide to grow the plant, but if there werent people like me then you wouldnt be pro that plant because you wouldn't have ever had the chance to lay eyes on it. You shouldn't have such a negative outlook towards the people who have taken risks in the past so we can all share the love my bruddah.

REPLY TO TOPIC BELOW
As far as the 15 dollar minimum wage thing goes, it sounds a little ridiculous. I dont think people should be forced to pay employees that much. If you want to start your own business and do that, have at it.

If it can actually work as this story says, you would attract the best workers and be able to keep them happy which would help your business overall. It would make you stand out among the crowd and it would be something to be proud of. If i was the owner of this restaurant i wouldnt want minimum wages raised to what i paid my workers, it would take away my edge.

originally posted by: TheJourney
Basically, many of you are saying that you need a college degree if you want to...be able to live.

i dont see people saying that.
i see people including myself saying college or a trade.
i didnt even graduate high school.
i dont have all these problems of not being able to find a job.
it depends on your skill set i guess. i figured out when i was 16 and working that i was going to need skills to make some money. so, i went out and got them.

agustus said

There are many jobs available that do not require a college degree but may require a trade. I have found that people do not want to work in a 'factory' and feel that this is beneath them.

^^^^^^
and youre spot on...there are lots of factory jobs to be had. people dont want them though. the work is beneath them. the hours are too long. the work is too hard...and on and on.

i work in a foundry. long hours and hard work but it pays very well. for this area it is one of the highest paying places you can get a job at.
ive said this on the board before but i will say it again cause you brought it up..

all these people that are so broke and need work right.?
i have seen this exact thing happen at least a dozen times at the foundry.

on monday there will be 10 or 12 new guys starting. temps. 12 an hour to start and if you tow the line after 90 youre in and the raises kick in. anyway, on monday there are 12 guys and by wednesday there might be1 or 2 left...all the rest never come back the next day or walk out a few hour into their shift.
happens all the time.

they were making 12 an hour. 3 months down the line they would have been a foundry employee making 15. by the end of the first year they would have been at $17.
not bad eh?
then you factor in the 60 hour weeks. so 40hrs at $17 and 20hrs at like $25.
thats a hell of a weekly check.

people walk away from it....then they go to mcdonalds and bitch about not making any money and about how broke they are.
the foundry offers benefits. 401k. weeks paid vacation. 3 personal days a year.
week long lay off in july and then in december for the week layoff you can get unemployment.

its ridiculous that people walk away from it but they do...they just cant handle it.

i was training a guy once on his 2nd day. he said he had to go to the bathroom. he didnt come back so after a few i went to get him. he was gone. he left his hard hat and boots in the bathroom.

so i have little sympathy when i hear how tough it is out there but i see 10 people at a time just walk away from a job that will pay them better than anything else around town.

priorities i guess.

originally posted by: Bundy


All i ask of society is that after doing my stay in jail, paying my fines, and completing my probation i be allowed as much of a chance as those equally qualified for a job as me. I'm not asking for special treatment, just the same as anyone else. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation, but it just doesn't work that way.

i didnt mean you were trying to make me feel bad. just people in general.
i wish you could have a fair shake too. you should be able to go up for work with your background. i totally agree with you.
that said, if someone throws $15 an hour at you to work the grill at mcdonalds cause you cant get a job anywhere else cause of a mistake you made, to me that is special treatment.

nobody threw that kind of money at me when i was coming up.
i know you are not asking for it but people are...people with your history or worse.
i agree man, it sucks.....if it were up to me i would hire you at the foundry but its not...you know?

i just feel that there are people that work hard(not saying you dont), go to college or trade school and they are not handed long money for low skill work.
people that dont go to college or trade school and/or have records that prevent them from getting work should not be handed it either....

originally posted by: amazing
It should be a right of passage. Graduate high school and work fast food, waitressing, plumbers helper, dishwasher, busboy, landscaping..whatever. After a couple of years, you move up to call center/office work or factory work or some skilled trade...you do that for a few years and then have the option to stay there or move on to some other better skilled work. There's always something to look forward to, there's always the next batch of workers to take over, the future is always bright for everyone. Utopia!

Every step up requires fewer and fewer workers. In a tiered system that's built like a pyramid there will always be people who can't advance because there simply isn't space for them. Should they be doomed to having an awful life?

originally posted by: Bundy
If it can actually work as this story says, you would attract the best workers and be able to keep them happy which would help your business overall. It would make you stand out among the crowd and it would be something to be proud of. If i was the owner of this restaurant i wouldnt want minimum wages raised to what i paid my workers, it would take away my edge.

Actually it does just the opposite. It increases the amount of money your potential customers have to spend, which in turn grows your business.

originally posted by: Grovit
nobody threw that kind of money at me when i was coming up.
i know you are not asking for it but people are...people with your history or worse.
i agree man, it sucks.....if it were up to me i would hire you at the foundry but its not...you know?

If wages had the same purchasing power that they had in lets say 1992 minimum wage would be $13/hour. If you go by 2003 it would be 11.50/hour. Minimum wage is currently 7.45/hour.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: amazing
It should be a right of passage. Graduate high school and work fast food, waitressing, plumbers helper, dishwasher, busboy, landscaping..whatever. After a couple of years, you move up to call center/office work or factory work or some skilled trade...you do that for a few years and then have the option to stay there or move on to some other better skilled work. There's always something to look forward to, there's always the next batch of workers to take over, the future is always bright for everyone. Utopia!

Every step up requires fewer and fewer workers. In a tiered system that's built like a pyramid there will always be people who can't advance because there simply isn't space for them. Should they be doomed to having an awful life?

originally posted by: Bundy
If it can actually work as this story says, you would attract the best workers and be able to keep them happy which would help your business overall. It would make you stand out among the crowd and it would be something to be proud of. If i was the owner of this restaurant i wouldnt want minimum wages raised to what i paid my workers, it would take away my edge.

Actually it does just the opposite. It increases the amount of money your potential customers have to spend, which in turn grows your business.

There is always room sooner or later somewhere. That's always true.. sometimes it means taking a different path but you can always advance.

originally posted by: amazing
There is always room sooner or later somewhere. That's always true.. sometimes it means taking a different path but you can always advance.

If you get the spot someone else doesn't. More than likely given the structure of the current job market, advancing in your own job means robbing two others of the same opportunity. You can not always advance, management is built as a pyramid structure. If there are 1000 people on the bottom there will be 200 one rung up, and there will be 40 one rung above that, then 8, then 4, then 1. Only one of those 1000 can advance to the top, and 800 of the 1000 (assuming the typical 5:1 management ratio) can never move up from the entry level position.

originally posted by: Aazadan

Every step up requires fewer and fewer workers. In a tiered system that's built like a pyramid there will always be people who can't advance because there simply isn't space for them. Should they be doomed to having an awful life?

if you are a hard worker, dependable, and have marketable skills there will always be work for you.

are you suggesting if youre not making great money then you will have an awful life?
are you suggesting that if a person can not advance any more due to skill set or background then money should just be thrown at him?

if so, why should anyone bother trying.
if you want to call not making great money being doomed to an awful life then yes, i think they should be doomed to an awful life.
not my fault they dont have the skills. not my fault they are not dependable...

what about the dozens of people like i mentioned?
they walked away from an opportunity to have secure employment and make damn good money. 1 day into it they walked off.
so, why should we feel bad for them? why should money be thrown at them?

its their fault they are in that spot.

i also have a feeling that there are thousands of people just like the people i mentioned. working at mcdonalds, bitching about how much they make, but they have pissed away opportunities in the past.

people dont address those issues though. they only like to address their current wage or the job market or any other number of reasons why they are having a hard time.
you start digging into their work history and you see a lot of the 20 somethings and older that are working fast food have a very spotty work history.
temp jobs they leave after a week. foundry job they left after a day.
happens all the time.

then they land at mcdonalds and they wonder why they dont have something better.....but yeah, its not their fault. its everyone and everything else.

right now today, you can walk into firestone, goodyear, tuffy, midas, etc etc with no experience and you will qualify for an entry level job. you will get paid more than mcdonalds for full time work. you will be doing oil changes and tire rotations...thats it.
you spend some time doing that and they will put you in classes and then you will get raises. you buy some tools and take your ase's.
a couple years down the line you have several ase certifications and youre making good money. start to acquire tools from the jump. once a week buy something.
the tool trucks come around and will set you up with a low line of credit. enough to buy something. pay it off and get something out.

thats how you do it...that is just one option and every city has repair shops like these.
same thing a the dealerships....
you start at the bottom and work your way up and learn the trade as you do it.

there are always options

originally posted by: Aazadan


If you get the spot someone else doesn't. More than likely given the structure of the current job market, advancing in your own job means robbing two others of the same opportunity. You can not always advance, management is built as a pyramid structure. If there are 1000 people on the bottom there will be 200 one rung up, and there will be 40 one rung above that, then 8, then 4, then 1. Only one of those 1000 can advance to the top, and 800 of the 1000 (assuming the typical 5:1 management ratio) can never move up from the entry level position.

we argued this in another thread.
all your stats and figured dont seem to fit the real world situation....
if you are dependable and have skills, there will always be room to move up.
not everyone wants to be at the top or management.
people retire. people get hurt. people die. people move. people move up the ladder.
there is always room to move up or at least be able to climb up way past a minimum wage, entry level no skill job.

throw out all the stats you want.
i have seen how it works with my own eyes..
i have started at the bottom and worked my way up. i see these places promote from within..

not saying someone will make it to the top of the ladder but that is a far cry from mcdonalds making crap money

Yeah, you can still always move up. It may not be into management and it may not be in the same company, but you can always get to a better situation. I keep doing it. I keep hitting walls that sometimes do last for years but then things shift, change etc or I learn new skills or try new things and I always keep moving forward. Sometimes the move is backwards for a few years or months but then it moves forwards again. Sometimes it takes reading business books, taking college classes, volunteering for something, writing detailed plans, public speaking, going to lectures and workshops and seminars. I just don't think we're as limited as you seem to think. If you don't like the position you're in, change the position you're in or the company, or the location or your daily habits or what you're reading or a thousand other things.

originally posted by: amazing
Yeah, you can still always move up. It may not be into management and it may not be in the same company, but you can always get to a better situation. I keep doing it. I keep hitting walls that sometimes do last for years but then things shift, change etc or I learn new skills or try new things and I always keep moving forward. Sometimes the move is backwards for a few years or months but then it moves forwards again. Sometimes it takes reading business books, taking college classes, volunteering for something, writing detailed plans, public speaking, going to lectures and workshops and seminars. I just don't think we're as limited as you seem to think. If you don't like the position you're in, change the position you're in or the company, or the location or your daily habits or what you're reading or a thousand other things.

same with me.
all the facts and power point pie charts dont mean thats how it actually is.
there is always places to go.

im like you man.
i started out doing oil changes like i mention. ended up going to school on their dime. got my certs and started making good money.
i was in the shop for more than 10 years.
i wanted to stop wrenching so i went to the foundry. didnt quite start at the bottom but i was not up there either.
i worked hard and showed up on time and i blazed through. within a year i was making several dollars more an hour than when i started. they put me into classes on their dime. i wound up in the metal lab running chems.
did that for a while that went to school for cnc on their dime. got another raise. better shift.

thats how you do it man...you just have to get after it.
i took as many classes as they would pay for. i never called off. i came in if i was called in.
it paid off.
they posted a job for the lab when i was still in quality. i bid on it and got it.
after a year of the lab they asked me if i knew how to run a cnc and would i like to.
i said i didnt know how to but hell yeah i wanted to and i could learn anything.
the following week i was in school that they paid for......

a reply to: Grovit

That's it man. Sometimes it's quick and fast but usually it takes time. Most people don't try to better themselves or do the work to move up, they complain about it though!

I started at fast food. Worked faster and harder than anyone and did anything that they asked. Then I started studying a reading the training manuals...I would take them home and read them after work! Who does that? That got me into being a shift superviser...which is horrible, they just abuse you and work you to death...but it got me into managment meetings and learning all kinds of things and reading management books. I got better at it and never gave up.. that got me to Assistant manager making a ton of money! Then I had some backward steps for a few years, and ended up moving up again and then when opportunity arose I moved into telecommunications... then I started studying resumes. and mine was looking pretty goot at this point...because of my work ethic..(not my skill or knowledge) I got moved into IT because those people wanted me there...then I got into fitness training and martial arts and then back into telecommunications and finally into my own business. with all kinds of free classes, seminars, conferences, training sessions, everything I could do I do. I still do it today. I own my own business but I'm in the middle of reading two sales books, some law of attraction stuff, self improvement books and I train under 3 different martial artists. Because who knows what will happen next?? It could be another step up or a step back but I'll keep moving no matter what! and learning!

originally posted by: Grovit
we argued this in another thread.
all your stats and figured dont seem to fit the real world situation....

Then I'll avoid repeating the arguments. Stats and figures come from the actions and lifestyles of those in real life. Humans are very prone to confirmation bias and we see what we want to see. If you're focused on the idea of moving up you're probably going to find a couple of people who also want to move up, and you will see each others successes over the years. The people you don't remember are going to be the people who weren't able to move up. Their lack of success isn't going to stay in your mind.

there is always room to move up or at least be able to climb up way past a minimum wage, entry level no skill job.

40% of households (actually 38%) make $30,000 or less. Our median wage which 50% of households make less than is equal in purchasing power to what minimum wage used to provide. Even jobs which require skills don't necessarily pay a high wage.

not saying someone will make it to the top of the ladder but that is a far cry from mcdonalds making crap money

That depends on your definition I suppose. I consider it to be crap money if the person doesn't make enough to buy their own home, be able to cover their medical bills when they arrive without assistance or bankruptcy, maintain a decent standard of living after retirement, travel, pursue hobbies of interest to them, pay for education, take multiple vacations per year, and have enough left over that they can build or contribute to generational wealth for their children. For a lifetime of work anything less is completely unacceptable.

originally posted by: Grovit
are you suggesting that if a person can not advance any more due to skill set or background then money should just be thrown at him?

No. I'm suggesting that if we as a society have deemed a job to be worth doing such as having people to serve us in a restaurant/fast food or even fixing our cars that we should ensure that worker can meet the above criteria. Otherwise they are nothing but a slave. If a job isn't worth doing financially then why do we have that job in the first place?

right now today, you can walk into firestone, goodyear, tuffy, midas, etc etc with no experience and you will qualify for an entry level job. you will get paid more than mcdonalds for full time work. you will be doing oil changes and tire rotations...thats it.
you spend some time doing that and they will put you in classes and then you will get raises. you buy some tools and take your ase's.
a couple years down the line you have several ase certifications and youre making good money. start to acquire tools from the jump. once a week buy something.
the tool trucks come around and will set you up with a low line of credit. enough to buy something. pay it off and get something out.

Different jobs have different requirements, it is also luck of the draw with employers. My experience has been that no one will hire me without an education, once I have the education they want years of experience on top of that. Once I have that I am expected to pay out of pocket (and take time off work) to take classes in order to stay current with the demands of the job. Just as companies pass on expenses like taxes to their customers they also pass on the expenses of training to the employee.

a reply to: amazing

same with me.
when i started the foundry i read everything i could.
i was reading about stuff that didnt even pertain to my job.

when i got into the lab i started reading about the spectrometer and the carbon analyzer. the machine itself and the operations an functions. didnt have to. i wanted to.
i asked my boss if i could take some of the materials home to read ans he said i was the first person in 15 years to ask if they could take stuff home. they had to print the stuff off and stamp 'uncontrolled copy' on it.

when i started on the cnc i downloaded simulation programs onto my laptop. i didnt know how to program at the time so i started reading that on my own. i would copy the programs i was running on the cnc onto my usb and then run them on my laptop in simulation. i would watch it in graphics. then i would make small edits to make sure i had a handle on what i was doing and run it again.
once i felt like it was proofed out i would then upload it to the cnc and turn a scrap bar or something to see how it went.
before long we were running my programs.

you have to get after it.
it is real easy for people to sit around and bitch about all the reasons why they are in the position they are in.

as soon as i started running chems i started to read about the properties of each element and what that meant when it was mixed with something else.
copper is soft but when you add copper to ductile iron it makes it super hard. i needed to know why?
i suppose i could have asked the metalurgist. instead i started reading and when i felt like i had a so so grasp of it then i asked him and we had a conversation about it.

anyone can take the initiative. they just dont.

they expect it to be handed to them.....a lot of people take a job and do the bare minimum. i was never like that.
i was always like a madman at work.
my shift started at 6am and by 5am i was sitting there drinking coffee, ready to jam.

before long i asked the boss if i could come in early and leave early. so i started coming in at 5. then i started coming in at 4.
by noon i had 8 hours in...i worked for a few hours by myself with nobody around to bother me.
the rest of quality came in and i had a few hours in already....
they were just wiping the sleep out of their eyes and still yawning away and i had a half a days worth of # done.


i dont know man....ive just always been that way...

originally posted by: Aazadan


The people you don't remember are going to be the people who weren't able to move up. Their lack of success isn't going to stay in your mind.
there is a reason they didnt move up though. no work ethic. calilng off or coming in late. there is more to it than a simple 'there were other people going for the same jobs'
i got my brother int he foundry. of course he screwed it up. when we called off or came in late we got points. a certain number of points and you got terminated. well, he got terminated...he did it to himself.
i had zero points. there were people there 10-15 years with never a single point. there are many reasons why people do not move up and i am a firm believer that a lot of those reasons has to do with the persons work ethic



Different jobs have different requirements, it is also luck of the draw with employers. My experience has been that no one will hire me without an education, once I have the education they want years of experience on top of that. Once I have that I am expected to pay out of pocket (and take time off work) to take classes in order to stay current with the demands of the job. Just as companies pass on expenses like taxes to their customers they also pass on the expenses of training to the employee.

^^yeah, you said that in the other thread.
i dont know what else to tell you.
i have had a few employers hire me with little or no skills pertaining to the job i was hired for only to pay for me to go to school.
sounds to me like you might just be doing something wrong.

oh well

the point is i dont think fast food should pay 15 an hour and i stand by it.
if you want it, you have to get after it

like frank costello said int he departed(i know is a movie)....
no one gives it to you. you have to take it

a reply to: peskyhumans

Common sense, no longer means anything. As Nick Hanauer wrote, "The Pitchforks Are Coming.." The governments, State and Federal, fell all over themselves helping corporations move overseas. Special tax rates, no import fees, etc, to encourage the loss of jobs in North America. Now, the Teapublicans are determined to remind America why, the "conservatives" were shut out of government during the Great Depression, then in 1948, proved again, they live in a fantasy and got shut out for decades. Ronnie Raygun comes along and does his best "pitchman" (Remember, he pitched on TV for GE and Borax) stunt and sells America a pig in the poke. Now, we get to see inside the poke sack, and discover it ain't a piglet, but a dead dog.

originally posted by: amazing
I started at fast food. Worked faster and harder than anyone and did anything that they asked. Then I started studying a reading the training manuals...I would take them home and read them after work! Who does that?

I'm in school for 18 hours a week. Working for another 20 per week. Doing homework for 30, sleeping for 70. And the other 30 I am reading and doing my own work. Right now I am building a 3d product turntable for a web application, it's not for a wage but I can use it one day as an example of a completed project when trying to demonstrate experience to an employer.

To your question of who does that? Pretty much everyone I've ever met in work or school. We all take stuff home and work on it. That's pretty much expected, how else will you ever build and maintain your skills? Employers certainly aren't going to pay you for that when you can do it on your own time.

I own my own business but I'm in the middle of reading two sales books, some law of attraction stuff, self improvement books and I train under 3 different martial artists. Because who knows what will happen next?? It could be another step up or a step back but I'll keep moving no matter what! and learning!

I would suggest adding some behavioral psychology to the mix. Sales techniques are nothing more than applied psychology and it's much more effective to just go right to the source and know why something does or doesn't work rather than having a list of what to do.