Russian propaganda

a reply to: Maxpower0001

www.mondotimes.com...

Thanks to technology I can now read any language.

Its not like these ARMED men were invited by the citizens. Its not like the Ukrainian government funded, trained and armed them to overthrow themselves.

So, what? Its BS that ANYTHING is happening in the Ukraine now? Its all BS? You do realize that this is an international event and not limited to US media coverage of it right?

Talk about wool over eyes.

a reply to: tadaman

So I guess you would support Nazi Germany in its invasion of Poland since "ethnic" Germans were being brutalized by polish forces?

No, if you bother to read what I said it is none of the business of Russia, America, Europe or anyone else to step in where a section of a Ukraine wishes to break away. How does that make me support Nazi Germany?

a reply to: PuterMan

since you alluded that having ETHNIC RUSSIANS somehow justified the whole thing.

There were ETHNIC GERMANS trying to do the same, and their father land responded much like Russia now. According to our laws as a civilization we saw that as wrong. If they were so upset they could have MOVED to Russia. Instead they chose to take a bite out of a country they dont identify with culturally.

We literally fought a world war over crap like this. It was very clearly laid out that you cant do what Russia did and is doing. It leads to war.....and we as a civilization are trying to move beyond that.

a reply to: PuterMan

Hmm, So Iraq and Afghanistan incursion's by the U.S. is one of the more used 'justifications'. Fairly standard.

Oh, by the way. I didn't call anyone a shill.

Oh, by the way, By descent, I'm half Ukrainian and half (White) Russian, so spare the slanted history lesson of the region.

Europe, in general, and also Eastern Europe, has had their borders and rulers change more than the Middle-East.

Crimea? Spare me! Three nations, all independent. At least two are now back under the thumb with the third in progress.

All that said, It's very difficult figuring out who is a shill and who isn't...almost impossible. So I treat those that spew the same argument with no balancing point/s from the other side without cease, both in post and their own threads, the same.

Not to mention you'll hear about it from the moderators.

( no, I'm not accusing you of being a shill. I wouldn't know and don't care either way.)

Putin is a bit more nervous now that the Republicans have a little more power. I believe if this had been a Presidential election, The Republicans likely would be running the whole show-assuming they didn't nominate a complete idiot, that is- and sees his window of opportunity starting to close.....

a reply to: tadaman

If there were so many "ethnic" Russians in Crimea why then did they not form part of the Russian federation after the fall of the soviet government?

In 1954, it was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union.[16] In 1991, it became part of independent Ukraine as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea.

en.wikipedia.org...

It is SO very insulting to a Ukrainian to say that they are basically Russians.

Has anyone actually said that? I don't think so. Ukrainians and Russians are two different demographic groups but it is nevertheless a fact that, as with any border area, the Eastern part of the Ukraine is predominantly peoples of Russian descent (that is Russian ethnicity and not Russian nationality)

a reply to: tadaman

Tell me. If you had rebels in your country that were funded, armed and trained by a foreign country what would you like done? ask them for a passport and if not ask them to leave?

Well these rebels are not invading but are being attacked and are defending home turf so was we wrong not to carpet bomb Ireland and should Spain bomb people in Catalan for voting and why was this OK with the west in the war over the old Yugoslavia to vote themselves independent but it's not OK in the Ukraine ?

Again double standards from the USA

If there are armed people trying to use violence to overthrow your government just to install a puppet government that will be subservient to a foreign entity what would you do?

The people with guns in the east are not trying to overthrow Kiev so that's silly but Kiev did overthrow an elected leader using guns so you tell me.

People in the Ukraine will be controlled by puppets just like everyone else in Europe

Russia and Europe were getting along just fine, too fine when it comes to Germany and Russia but then the USA wanted to upset the apple cart by spending $5bn on far right Nazi's in the Ukraine (ask Ron Paul about the $5bn) and a lot of the public like me are not too happy about it which you can understand so don't think its cost the USA nothing.

What I don't get is Americans enjoying paying for the bill so that the USA can police/bully the world as if you are the master race and knows what's best for us all

Being a patriot I want your military bases over here about as much as you would want ours on your land

originally posted by: tadaman
Just as a challenge to all who support Russias actions in the Ukraine.

WITHOUT mentioning the US or another country,

Tell me how Russia was justified to do anything in the Ukraine?

I know you will not be able to form a sound argument that I cant dismantle with no effort. Do you?

So do it. Tell me without mentioning the US or the west or any other country besides Russia and the Ukraine, tell me how they are justified in doing what they are doing?

I dare you.

The Ukraine government allowed a coup and illegal occupation of the government followed. How is Russia supposed to just sit there while god knows who starts giving orders that could threaten Russian security. Say the new occupiers of the Ukrainian government started opening up the Crimean ports to Russians enemies? Russia has a right to defend itself and the fashion that the rebel Ukrainian government chose to separate from it's relations with Russia would understandably leave Russia concerned for its assets that it help build in Ukraine.

a reply to: PuterMan

YOU did say that having ethnic Russians justified this whole ordeal.

After the Union of Lublin in 1569 and the formation of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth Ukraine fell under Polish administration, becoming part of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland. The period immediately following the creation of the Commonwealth saw a huge revitalization in colonisation efforts. Many new cities and villages were founded.

SO should we give Poland a dog in this fight?

They WERE NOT part of Russia yesterday. Today they are threatened with that and its because of Russian efforts to win back a strategic point of interest. There is no justification by drawing on history. TODAY, right now, a sovereign nation lost part of its territory to another using back handed means of subversion.

If the "ethnic Russians" wanted to part of Russia then they would have done so when the option was given to them once the soviet union fell.

They didnt since for all you know these "Russians in the Ukraine" could be tourists trying to get their summer homes into their home country.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

The Ukraine government allowed a coup and illegal occupation of the government followed.

That is The Ukraine's problem...not Russia's. It is an obvious excuse by Russia to expand its borders. Why have they not left after establishing fair elections? WHO even said for Crimea to just join Russia?

So you think that other people have a say in the way people live IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY?

Russia has a right to defend itself

It has a rights IN THE UKRAINE?

FAIL.

a reply to: VirusGuard

Oh, now their 'Ukrainian citizens'...What happened to the 'ethnic Russians' in the east?? All of a sudden their not involved?

No plants? Russia has completely wiped out the greatest propaganda machine in the history of the world?

You post well, but anyone who thinks ANY nation wants to be back under the thumb of an empire after having won independence, well, let's put it this way, under no circumstance will I EVER buy into that complete .........LMAO.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: MALBOSIA

The Ukraine government allowed a coup and illegal occupation of the government followed.

That is The Ukraine's problem...not Russia's. It is an obvious excuse by Russia to expand its borders. Why have they not left after establishing fair elections? WHO even said for Crimea to just join Russia?

So you think that other people have a say in the way people live IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY?

You asked me and I answered.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Hmm, So Iraq and Afghanistan incursion's by the U.S. is one of the more used 'justifications'. Fairly standard.

Not quite sure what you are saying there. I am not justifying anything.

Oh, by the way. I didn't call anyone a shill.

No indeed you did not. My fault for a wandering reply so my apologies it was not directed to you.

so spare the slanted history lesson of the region.

I sincerely hope my understanding of the history of the region is not slanted. I try to stick to facts, and by the way I do have Ukrainian friends living in Ukraine.

Putin is a bit more nervous now that the Republicans have a little more power. I believe if this had been a Presidential election, The Republicans likely would be running the whole show-assuming they didn't nominate a complete idiot, that is- and sees his window of opportunity starting to close.....

Actually I hate politics and politicians and would happily despatch the whole lot of them to some remote island to lie to each other to their own content. There is more grief and bloodshed in this world than there should be and most of it caused by politics and greed.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

and like I showed you, flawed judgement which is morally reprehensible, logically flawed, and unjustified.

Just because you answered doesn't make it a right answer. You basically repeated the exact type of propaganda this thread is about.

Thanks!

Russia has NO RIGHT to decide if the Ukraine gets a fair government or not. That is ENTIRELY up to Ukrainian citizens NOT the Russian Government.

You basically used the "they are coming right at us" argument on behalf of Russia.

LOL

a reply to: VirusGuard

What I don't get is Americans enjoying paying for the bill so that the USA can police/bully the world as if you are the master race and knows what's best for us all

FAIL

So you cant just justify the actions of Russia. OK.

SO we should just assume that the rest of your sentiment is actually about the US in a negative light? Ok, I think that much is clear.

If there are armed men whom another country sent to overthrow or disrupt my country I would think its part of the home governments responsibility to eliminate them. If they are armed I think its normal to use ARMED tactics to eliminate them.

a reply to: tadaman

Good to see you do in fact know a little history, credit where due.

German expansion by saying it's got to invade to protect people who speak German over the border but the USA is pulling that trick all the time, says it coming to protect human rights so that's the excuse to invaded everyone.
The USA is acting like a rabies dog and even if it got some meat in the Ukraine then it would soon be snapping its teeth across the fence at Russia or China or Iran, Syria, anyone because that's what they do.

When people across the pond tell you they don't want your protection don't you understand why

a reply to: tadaman

Here is an article written by a Russian American
Who decided to Listen to Only Russian Media for 7 days.
The resulting synopsis is quite informative.
I found it to be quite interesting.
I believe you will as well.

Enjoy,,,
Link : www.businessinsider.com...

S&F

a reply to: tadaman

You appear to be completely unable to distinguish between ethicity/heritage and nationality.

In fact I am not even sure what it is you are arguing now.

a reply to: VirusGuard

I am really having a hard time reading your posts ALL ABOUT THE USA.

Do you even know how to speak for yourself without spewing memorized formula?

What is your stance on Russian expansionism. PLEASE, PLEASE, OH GOD PLEASE speak with your own thoughts not about the US. I am trying here.

a reply to: PuterMan

I am just responding to your argument with a fitting rebuttal that is in line with my argument.

If you dont follow that is entirely on you.

Dont straw man this up.

I know more about culture, heritage and ethnicity than most thanks to my own particular culture, heritage, ethnicity. I could tell you how I am not Latino, but am Hispanic, how I am culturally Iberian yet Celtic, how I am an American yet a Spaniard and how my kids will be considering my wife's own culture, heritage and ethnicity..., how I am who I am and who we are as a people.

I could probably school someone who goes to school for these issues based on life experience alone just dealing with it. SO dont.


EDIT TO ADD:
JUST TO CLARIFY SINCE YOU ARE LOST, apparently.

I am saying that Russia is engaged in massive propaganda efforts following its recent acts of aggression against the Ukraine. YOU responded that since there are ethnic Russians there that its all OK. A person who is both white Russian and Ukrainian just responded saying that its not about that. I compared your argument to that which was used by Nazi Germany in invading Poland in defense of its ethnic Germans. I reminded you that after the World War fought over this we all agreed that it is wrong to do so since it leads to war. Then you feign to not know what we are talking about...even though this is YOUR train of thought I am following.

And thats where we are at.

So I am pretty much done here.

In summation:

No one could justify Russia´s actions. I will leave it at that.






Have a good one all.

Even if we disagree, I would urge you all to think for yourself, inform yourselves beyond hit pieces or youtube and film
Question everything you THINK you believe and make damn sure you know whos banner you are carrying.

Bye bye.