What is a feminist, what is feminism, and what is a 'feminazi'? Do you know what they are?

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
The family unit doesn't suffer because a woman can vote - does it? If you honestly want to sell this idea that she was home bleaching sheets and making pudding because that was the only way she could support the family unit, well - I guess we are at an impasse

Remember, men were helping them. Men had to fight and *die* for the right to vote too... it didn't just appear out of nowhere (not that it's doing any of us any good).

I'm stating that your attempt to project backwards that it was that way because of a deliberate effort to keep the woman down as opposed to a natural development due to the way communities had self organized then you are projecting backward a mindset that was not true. The vote represented the needs of the family, not the man.

People want to take their situation *now* and project backward what they believe the intent was rather than trying to understand the actual mindset and intentions of the people they are criticizing. Each person had benefits and difficulties. Men dealt with and endured things that women didn't, and vice versa.

a reply to: ErgoTheAbsurd

Remember, men were helping them. Men had to fight for the right to vote too... it didn't just appear out of nowhere.

Men - feminist men - helped them. Because why? Why did they need help?

:-)

That is what is hurting so much the discussion is people want to take their situation *now* and project backward what they believe the intent was rather than trying to understand the actual mindset and intentions of the people they are criticizing.

Women don't understand history? Women don't understand intent? Women don't understand men? :-)

I have a sense that this discussion only makes sense for you if it's about women not understanding men - and in fact feminism for you must mean that most feminists are blaming men and history. I promise - it is about much more than just this

Women - even feminists - like men. Love men. Respect men. None of this precludes them from having a hankering for self determination

I understand that this desire (as far as you're concerned) really messes up the family unit

I wish you could answer this one question: why did women have to fight for the right to vote?

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I'm still stuck on: Women had Men to protect them.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

Remember, men were helping them. Men had to fight for the right to vote too... it didn't just appear out of nowhere.

Men - feminist men - helped them. Because why? Why did they need help?

Egalitarian men.

They needed help for the same reason men need help dealing with the custody courts right now. A cultural structure was in place that needed changing and doesn't happen spontaneously.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

That is what is hurting so much the discussion is people want to take their situation *now* and project backward what they believe the intent was rather than trying to understand the actual mindset and intentions of the people they are criticizing.

Women don't understand history? Women don't understand intent? Women don't understand men? :-)

I say people, you hear "women".

I try to explain that the women who lived at that time were not idiots and had more of a say regarding the way their communities and families were structured than you give them credit for. You need to maintain the idea that there is no possible way that prior to the industrial revolution women could think for themselves or have any part in the way their communities were run and organized.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
I have a sense that this discussion only makes sense for you if it's about women not understanding men

No, I do not perpetually project gender into every concept.

It's about modern people not understanding time periods they didn't live in and projecting their current values on them and making significant mistakes in doing so when it comes to understanding why they were behaving the way they were.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
- and in fact feminism for you must mean that most feminists are blaming men and history. I promise - it is about much more than just this

Women - even feminists - like men. Love men. Respect men. None of this precludes them from having a hankering for self determination

I understand that this desire (as far as you're concerned) really messes up the family unit

I've said nothing of the sort. I've said that there IS an agenda by certain people who know full well that part of the process of destroying the family unit is granting women the right to vote. It was using a *good* thing to assist in accomplishing a negative agenda.

Do you really think Edward Bernays had women's liberation in mind when he got them to start smoking for "self determination"?

Nowhere have I said you shouldn't vote, but I'm not going to ignore that the change is part of the process of dividing us against ourselves.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
I wish you could answer this one question: why did women have to fight for the right to vote?

Why did men?

When you stop seeing it as a "woman's" issue and look at it as the resistance from a power structure which included men and women at the top and men and women at the bottom, then a different story can be seen. Not only do you see how the men and women who seek to retain power at all costs were going to resist a sudden influx of new voters until they could make use of it and guide it, then you can see that it had nothing to do with men against women... but government against the population.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Spiramirabilis
I'm still stuck on: Women had Men to protect them.

Would you look at that...

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
On average, yes. Women also protected men in their own way.

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
That is what is hurting so much the discussion is people want to take their situation *now* and project backward what they believe the intent was rather than trying to understand the actual mindset and intentions of the people they are criticizing.

I try to explain that the women who lived at that time were not idiots and had more of a say regarding the way. It's about modern people not understanding time periods they didn't live in and projecting their current values on them and making significant mistakes in doing so when it comes to understanding why they were behaving the way they were.

We see these behaviors in certain religions TODAY in America.

Don't tell me I don't understand.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
That is what is hurting so much the discussion is people want to take their situation *now* and project backward what they believe the intent was rather than trying to understand the actual mindset and intentions of the people they are criticizing.

I try to explain that the women who lived at that time were not idiots and had more of a say regarding the way. It's about modern people not understanding time periods they didn't live in and projecting their current values on them and making significant mistakes in doing so when it comes to understanding why they were behaving the way they were.

We see these behaviors in certain religions TODAY in America.

Don't tell me I don't understand.

Do you also see the part about those religions wanting to turn back the clock to treat women like they were treated back then?

originally posted by: Tangerine
We see these behaviors in certain religions TODAY in America.

Don't tell me I don't understand.

I grew up in a Baptist/Catholic world. I will tell you that you do not seem to recognize or care about the wholesale emotional domination of most of the women over their men in practice. Not the social "play" but the actual dynamic going on under the public act.

originally posted by: Tangerine
Do you also see the part about those religions wanting to turn back the clock to treat women like they were treated back then?

“Above all things there are the women who, as a literal fact, dominate the entire life in America. The men take an interest in absolutely nothing at all. They work and work, the like of which I have never seen anywhere yet. For the rest they are the toy dogs of the women, who spend the money in a most unmeasurable, illimitable way and wrap themselves in a fog of extravagance."

Domination of women over men in America is not a national phase, but a world-wide one, believes William Wrigley Jr. “It is just as true in Germany as it is here.” he says. “Einstein is right on the women, and I’m proud of the fact. Aren’t the women behind everything a man does? Maybe not openly, but they’re there just the same. What else can a man do with his money but spend it on his wife?”

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd

originally posted by: Tangerine
We see these behaviors in certain religions TODAY in America.

Don't tell me I don't understand.

I grew up in a Baptist/Catholic world. I will tell you that you do not seem to recognize or care about the wholesale emotional domination of most of the women over their men in practice. Not the social "play" but the actual dynamic going on under the public act.

Now I don't know what you're talking about.

And what gives you authority?

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
That is what is hurting so much the discussion is people want to take their situation *now* and project backward what they believe the intent was rather than trying to understand the actual mindset and intentions of the people they are criticizing.

I try to explain that the women who lived at that time were not idiots and had more of a say regarding the way. It's about modern people not understanding time periods they didn't live in and projecting their current values on them and making significant mistakes in doing so when it comes to understanding why they were behaving the way they were.

We see these behaviors in certain religions TODAY in America.

Don't tell me I don't understand.

Do you also see the part about those religions wanting to turn back the clock to treat women like they were treated back then?

Back then when?

I know about gender inequality in the 50s. Cuz I was actually there.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
That is what is hurting so much the discussion is people want to take their situation *now* and project backward what they believe the intent was rather than trying to understand the actual mindset and intentions of the people they are criticizing.

I try to explain that the women who lived at that time were not idiots and had more of a say regarding the way. It's about modern people not understanding time periods they didn't live in and projecting their current values on them and making significant mistakes in doing so when it comes to understanding why they were behaving the way they were.

We see these behaviors in certain religions TODAY in America.

Don't tell me I don't understand.

Do you also see the part about those religions wanting to turn back the clock to treat women like they were treated back then?

Back then when?

I know about gender inequality in the 50s. Cuz I was actually there.

You miss the point by a mile. You always do.

originally posted by: Annee
Now I don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, I hold no illusions otherwise.

originally posted by: Annee
And what gives you authority?

The same that lets you try to tell me what not to do.

originally posted by: Annee
I know about gender inequality in the 50s. Cuz I was actually there.

Hey guess where you weren't?

Being drafted into Korea or Vietnam.

Anyways... we've been around this circle before Annee so no reason to keep racing around the track together, heh.

I honestly mean it when I say that the two women I linked to earlier (one of them considers herself a feminist) will have more meaningful thoughts to offer you than I can. Best to you. /salute

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd

originally posted by: Annee
I know about gender inequality in the 50s. Cuz I was actually there.

Hey guess where you weren't?

Being drafted into Korea or Vietnam.

...

I also don't recall women starting either of those wars.

a reply to: Annee

:-)

And because a post requires more than just a home made smiley, I guess I'll ask - from who?

originally posted by: Tangerine
I also don't recall women starting either of those wars.

I also don't recall the wives divorcing the men who did.

The men who were sent didn't start them, and women didn't have to fear being forced to go.

a reply to: ErgoTheAbsurd

I try to explain that the women who lived at that time were not idiots and had more of a say regarding the way their communities and families were structured than you give them credit for. You need to maintain the idea that there is no possible way that prior to the industrial revolution women could think for themselves or have any part in the way their communities were run and organized.

Are you trying to explain it to idiots now - these modern people - that are not understanding history?

Women have had a kind of power all along - I am aware. And yet...

Why did they have to fight for the right to vote?

When you stop seeing it as a "woman's" issue and look at it as the resistance from a power structure which included men and women at the top and men and women at the bottom, then a different story can be seen. Not only do you see how the men and women who seek to retain power at all costs were going to resist a sudden influx of new voters until they could make use of it and guide it, then you can see that it had nothing to do with men against women... but government against the population.

Ah - The Powers That Be Agenda

They only allowed women to vote when it served their purpose - that being to bring civilization (or certain parts of it anyhow) to it's knees

I always forget

Egalitarian men

That word Feminist - does it make your skin burn?

:-)

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
Why did they have to fight for the right to vote?

The same reason men did.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
They only allowed women to vote when it served their purpose - that being to bring civilization (or certain parts of it anyhow) to it's knees

I always forget

I can't help you remember that manipulating populations using emotionally driven false narratives and distorting history is the norm.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
That word Feminist - does it make your skin burn?

No more or less than Masculinist does.

Does considering the possibility that you're being used make your cognitive dissonance ring?

I am a male and a feminist. A feminist is someone who works for the day when a person's gender is of no more social significance than the color of their eyes.