What is a feminist, what is feminism, and what is a 'feminazi'? Do you know what they are?

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
a reply to: Annee
I grew up watching women bully the men in their lives while telling the men it's their fault while receiving checks.

Cue dismissal of my experience in the 80's/90's because of your experience in the 60's in 5... 4... 3... 2...

You can't bully someone who doesn't allow it, (I'm talking adults, not the playground or criminal hostage).

Again, bullying is not about gender.

originally posted by: Annee
Again, bullying is not about gender.

When there is a legal structure which inherently is biased toward presuming the innocence of one gender and the guilt of another... it is.

This is why in domestic disputes where the woman hits the man, the man is the one the police put in the back of the police car. I have 4 law enforcement parents, they have confirmed that this is true, they hate it, but it's what they are required to do because they are less likely to be liable if they arrest a male in error than a female.

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd

originally posted by: Annee
Again, bullying is not about gender.

When there is a legal structure which inherently is biased toward presuming the innocence of one gender and the guilt of another... it is.
.

Nothing changes overnight.

However, many cases today of domestic dispute --- both are taken to jail.

a reply to: ErgoTheAbsurd

For #s Sake NO!

But it's not one gender against the other. It's rulers and slaves... regardless of gender (or race... see?)!!!

Thank you for your gentlemanly and not at all condescending reply

My reply was for someone else - I was genuinely wondering what they thought about this

You seem to want to put words in my mouth and assume things I've never said. I'm sure that makes your anger seem reasonable and your argument easier to justify

Which tells me that when it comes to feminists - and feminism - you've already decided what we women all think

Do you think women are too stupid to understand that men also suffer?

Let me put this another way - is it that you believe women are incapable of understanding history and placing themselves in it, or understanding the relative pain of all mankind?

Are you arguing that women have never had a separate issue at all - and that our suffering (if there ever was any) was only at the hands of kings or other rulers?

Much of the structure that is railed against now was in practice specifically because SLAVE (in all but name) men were trying their best to create a social structure to protect their SLAVE wife and SLAVE children from the harsh realities of life outside of their family. And those women and children (first off the sinking ship remember) benefited more often than not from the manner in which men were taking the brunt of the social responsibility and burden.

Let me ask you something - when did women get the vote in this country? Was denying women the vote (among other things) part of that structure set up by men to protect us from the harsh realities of life?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
a reply to: Annee
I grew up watching women bully the men in their lives while telling the men it's their fault while receiving checks.

Cue dismissal of my experience in the 80's/90's because of your experience in the 60's in 5... 4... 3... 2...

You can't bully someone who doesn't allow it, (I'm talking adults, not the playground or criminal hostage).

Again, bullying is not about gender.

Oh my. You may have stepped in it this time.

That presents quite a quandary for the professional victims among the more militant feminists...

Women are "bullied" because they "allow" it? Why would they do that? so that they can reap the benefits of "vicitmhood"?

originally posted by: Annee
Again, bullying is not about gender.

Skip to about 18:30... it *is* about gender these days whether you want to see it or not.

originally posted by: nenothtu
Oh my. You may have stepped in it this time.

That presents quite a quandary for the professional victims among the more militant feminists...

Oh ho ho...!!!

a reply to: ErgoTheAbsurd

When there is a legal structure which inherently is biased toward presuming the innocence of one gender and the guilt of another... it is.

Perhaps it is safer that way. A patriarchal society is built upon the foundation of protecting women and child from outside forces. It might take a millenia before this urge is sanded down through practice.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
Let me ask you something - when did women get the vote in this country? Was denying women the vote (among other things) part of that structure set up by men to protect us from the harsh realities of life?

Let me ask you something - Can you think of any reason that... at the time... most women weren't concerned with voting?

Let me ask you something else - Can you think of any reason that someone might want to erode the family structure in favor of an individual structure?

Look... those men were voting in the best interests of their families. Not against women. Their wives were making sure the side of their family they were responsible for was well taken care of while supporting their men making sure the side of their family they were responsible for was well taken care of. It was a team.

Yes, giving women the right to vote makes logical sense. But it was not denied previously in an effort to keep women down. It was because at the time the family unit was primary and everyone had their responsibilities to protect it. That has long since been destroyed and if you really can't see how the effort to destroy the family unit so we could be divided and conquered has worked splendidly... then... I dunno.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd

originally posted by: Annee
Again, bullying is not about gender.

When there is a legal structure which inherently is biased toward presuming the innocence of one gender and the guilt of another... it is.
.

Nothing changes overnight.

However, many cases today of domestic dispute --- both are taken to jail.

Never heard of that, so I doubt the quantification of "many", vague though it is.

My second wife once balled her fist up and popped me right upside the head. She wanted me to physically retaliate. had I done so, she would have had me right where she wanted me, but I failed to take the bait. Instead, I went to the courthouse bright and early the next morning and took out a "Domestic Violence" order against her, turning the tables from what she expected. Sure, I took a lot of crap, felt silly, and had to endure a lot of giggling and whining, but it DID stop the BS, cold - and that was my objective.

No one went to jail, though.

Some years later, my third "wife" made accusations of violence when she saw that I really was leaving. No matter that I was leaving, and had no rhyme or reason to resort to violence - the accusations was made, and I went to jail on strength of the accusation alone. Just me, not "both". I was found not guilty at trial, because no violence had even occurred, but still, she made good use of that time that I was in jail to clean me out of everything of value.

Now THAT is "working the system"!

a reply to: nenothtu

"Masculinism" is probably why those societies are so rare now...

So back and forth we go?

Everyone loves the status quo - it's what's normal and expected. So long as they have a chair when the music stops. It will probably always be just like this. As long as we're talking about victim-hood, I guess it's fair to say that everyone gets to be a victim at some point

The dream of course is a world where the men are safe from the womens - treacherous lot

And I'm only partially kidding

:-)

This world is safe for nobody - onward, ever onward

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
Do you think women are too stupid to understand that men also suffer?

Most women, no.

Some women, don't care.

A few women, are happy. #KillAllMen

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
Are you arguing that women have never had a separate issue at all - and that our suffering (if there ever was any) was only at the hands of kings or other rulers?

I'm arguing that you don't accept that the things your ancestors had to deal with are no longer significant issues and in western society... you actually do have both legal and cultural rights and privileges above "average" men.

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
a reply to: Annee
I grew up watching women bully the men in their lives while telling the men it's their fault while receiving checks.

Cue dismissal of my experience in the 80's/90's because of your experience in the 60's in 5... 4... 3... 2...

You can't bully someone who doesn't allow it, (I'm talking adults, not the playground or criminal hostage).

Again, bullying is not about gender.

Oh my. You may have stepped in it this time.

That presents quite a quandary for the professional victims among the more militant feminists...

Women are "bullied" because they "allow" it? Why would they do that? so that they can reap the benefits of "vicitmhood"?

Just so you know, I'm close to 70 years old. I feel it is relevant in discussing the evolvement of women's equality.

Without legal and personal equality, how does a woman get what she feels - she needs, or how she feels - she needs to be treated? Eveyone's heard of "Feminine Wiles". There was a time when it was the only means of power a woman had.

Who's responsibility is it exactly, if a man falls for a woman's Feminine Wiles? Or a woman who falls for a man's empty promises?

As I always say: the hardest thing to change is culture.

However, the tools need to be in place first to do that. Laws had to change, and equality movements had to happen.

And still, a bully is a bully, is a bully. Not a gender.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

A factual post, all the way around - and I'm only partially kidding, too!

a reply to: Annee
Do you think it's at all possible that granddaughter culture could ever become just like the male culture their grandmothers hated?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What disgusts me, as I mentioned, is the way you speak so haphazardly about vast amounts of people, shoehorning all of them and the almost infinite nuance into your rigid conceptual compartments. The way you express your views is what disgusts me.

One hardly knows what to say...

Especially since none of that makes much sense :-)

You are not at all concerned with nuance Les - so, let's at least be honest about that

The way I express my views? Do tell

I believe in equality - the fact that I see it in places and ways that leaves you feeling conflicted is not something I'm going to worry about. Since you can't quite bring yourself to answer my question:

I wonder - could you put into words for me what my version of things is?

I can see how it might be easier to tell me you're disgusted by me instead :-)

Lazy - among other things. Still waiting for that answer...

I mean this lovingly, of course.

Sigh...

I'm out of here for a while Les - let's see if you have what it takes to answer a direct question - directly :-)

(Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised when I return?)

a reply to: Annee

I'm not far behind you, age-wise, but may have been privy to conversations which you were not growing up. based upon that, to hear the older (than me) fellas tell it, "equality" may be a DOWNGRADE for women.

So, the dance continues - it's just a matter of who leads.

originally posted by: ErgoTheAbsurd
a reply to: Annee
Do you think it's at all possible that granddaughter culture could ever become just like the male culture their grandmothers hated?

I don't think we'll go backwards. But, the pendulum always swings.

Strong movements level out after a while. Individuals go their own ways.

originally posted by: nenothtu
I'm not far behind you, age-wise, but may have been privy to conversations which you were not growing up. based upon that, to hear the older (than me) fellas tell it, "equality" may be a DOWNGRADE for women.

Many ladies are starting to grasp this.

That the stories of glory and victory were there to keep the dudes motivated in spite of how awful the reality was.

originally posted by: nenothtu
So, the dance continues - it's just a matter of who leads.

The ladies have always lead.

originally posted by: nenothtu
a reply to: Annee

I'm not far behind you, age-wise, but may have been privy to conversations which you were not growing up. based upon that, to hear the older (than me) fellas tell it, "equality" may be a DOWNGRADE for women.

So, the dance continues - it's just a matter of who leads.

It's definitely not a downgrade for women. It gave them choice.

Choice is never a downgrade IMO

Choose wisely.