Tired Of The Propaganda - "Support The Troops"

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: skalla

Who the hell cares about TACT when dealing with truthful and realistic complaints.

We have been bombarded more and more with military greatness ads all over everything we see, and today almost every channel is blindly and solemnly showing us that we should revere the men that do all the fighting....my own grandfather who died last year flew in WW2, and even he admits the war was a gong show.

It is time to salute things other than the "SOLDIER FOLLOWING ORDERS" like the guy had any choice at that point anyways, but time to salute those who might actually do something productive in this world.

But oh wait, all of them must be conspiracy theorists for not believing everything the news tells them.

Wow, you seem annoyed at me that i demonstrate some empathy for one day of the year with folk who may have lost a parent for example.

Fair enough, but i'll stick with respecting someone's loss on the 11th.

Well I guess you said it yourself, you're not the sharpest nail in the toolbox...

If you want to be angry about our involvement in other countries, blame the politicians who send us there, not the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines.

Those who serve our country DESERVE our respect.

originally posted by: oldetimehockey4
Well I guess you said it yourself, you're not the sharpest nail in the toolbox...

If you want to be angry about our involvement in other countries, blame the politicians who send us there, not the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines.

Those who serve our country DESERVE our respect.

So we should respect the people who VOLUNTEER to carry out the politicians whims? Okaay.

originally posted by: oldetimehockey4

Those who serve our country DESERVE our respect.

This wording kind of insinuates that there are similarly dangerous/taxing jobs that don't deserve our collective respect. Considering the numerous professions out there, I'm really curious as to why only one is top of the auto-respect pyramid here. And curious as to if this can be explained without emotionally-laced buzzwords & patriotic parroting?

a reply to: Nyiah

I'm not sure why you're insinuating I ONLY respect those in the military. Those were not my words. Obviously there are many professions that deserve respect.

Not sure what your point is....

a reply to: corvuscorrax

We should respect those who volunteer to serve our country.

You speak as if they line up with the collective mindset to serve the needs of our politicians, that's not the case.

a reply to: oldetimehockey4

I don't think that when people enlist, they do so with the intent to subvert other governments, become paid robot-killers, or support evil corporations.


I know I didn't.

I think there is a certain nobility and honor that comes with military service. We didn't do it for the pay, the fame, the fast cars or hot babes.

But to each their own.

If people want to hate on those who serve or who have served, it is their right and is okay, so long as I can still honor and respect those who serve or who have served.

a reply to: beezzer

True, it is their right to have misplaced hate, I suppose I'll just never understand why veterans or those on active duty get such harsh treatment from people like the posters above, when they're not to blame.

I'm sure they're the same type of people who yell at waiters for their food being undercooked....

originally posted by: corvuscorrax

So we should respect the people who VOLUNTEER

Nobody is asking you to do a damn thing.

If you choose not to respect those who have or are presently serving that's your business. Nobody is judging you for what you choose to do with your life. Where does this holier than thou self righteousness to sit in judgement of others stem from?

My 6 year old has a healthier sense of adequacy

originally posted by: SemperGumby

originally posted by: corvuscorrax

So we should respect the people who VOLUNTEER

Nobody is asking you to do a damn thing.

If you choose not to respect those who have or are presently serving that's your business. Nobody is judging you for what you choose to do with your life. Where does this holier than thou self righteousness to sit in judgement of others stem from?

My 6 year old has a healthier sense of adequacy

You obviously didn't reference the quote I used when I wrote that. It's okay.

Unless of course you want to argue semantics on what the word deserve means. At which point don't bother.

I will elaborate a bit further for clarity sake. An Iraq war vet used to live next door to me and we'd drink whiskey and hang out a lot. He served 3 tours and got injured when an IED blew up the Humvee he was in. He would share his experiences with us because he suffered from PTSD and he said it was therapeutic to talk about what he saw and did. I respected the hell out of him for that and because he was an all around good dude. I found his stories extremely interesting and awe inspiring.

I just don't agree with the implication that simply because you served you deserve respect. Content of character still plays a role.

originally posted by: TheSpanishArcher
a reply to: WanderingSage

OWS didn't do squat here. There were about five guys sitting at Trop and L.V. Blvd. That's not a protest.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to not agree.

I was there, so were hundreds of others who marched up and down the strip, making ourselves heard to thousands of tourists, where were you?

I thought you were making some decent points until you revealed yourself as a whiner who can't even make it down to a protest to affect some change.

This.

Judging by the amount of stars your post received and personal experience, many more people agree with you but are less willing to speak out (I count myself amongst those; I live in a military neighbourhood).

Sorry for my first post on the thread to potentially Gowdin it, but does anyone recall the 4th Nuremberg Principal?

The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.

Source

If you are signing up to kill people, you should make sure you have a DAMN GOOD REASON for doing so, or otherwise you're left with either killing for personal profit or nationalism (read: 'I am better than you' or 'acceptable replacement for racism'). You have all these people attacking you ('If you're in a bad situation, it's your fault' - a very odd, logically flawed and very 'American' sentiment), yet denying personal responsibility of soldiers? Wow!

Even if you are in an engineering, cook etc. role in the military, you are actively facilitating extraterritorial violence!

How indeed is American security being assured by extraterritorial attacks? Look at what independent geopolitical analysts are saying: that such acts are more likely to radicalize people against the 'West'. Anyway, the Cold War finished with the USSR, and the U.S still has plenty of nukes, it's not like M.A.D. isn't still a deterrent.

Whilst 'tact' may have gotten your message across better, we are discussing THE RAPE AND DESTRUCTION OF ENTIRE REGIONS, infrastructurally, economically, socially and of course on the personal level of killing individuals. If there was ever a situation to discuss in which you would do away with tact, this is it. The fact that we exalt the killers and ignore the killed should be of significant concern.

Re propaganda: in AU, we have the pledge "Lest We Forget" said on days such as 11/11. Ironically, Australia's collective memory of heroic war is that of Gallipoli. This was a FAILED, BRITISH INVASION of Turkey; nothing was achieved, and many were lost. It should be rectified to "Lo, We Forgot".

Despite considering myself a radical pacifist, I do recognize that a military is necessary on this planet in order to protect and deter attacks, but what people are claiming as necessary is utterly ridiculous.

Apologies that my reply that became more of a rant in itself.

a reply to: ParasuvO

ParasuvO, Nyiah, corvuscorrax, thanks for the words.

For those who think I have picked the wrong day, that was accidental. I truly did not know today was Vets day as I don't pay attention to holidays. If I had been listening closer to what the guys were saying on the tele I would have known but I wasn't really paying attention to that either, it was mostly just background noise. Which falls into the whatever category, I realize

I think the post I'm responding to sums it up much better than I did.

We have been bombarded more and more with military greatness ads all over everything we see, and today almost every channel is blindly and solemnly showing us that we should revere the men that do all the fighting....my own grandfather who died last year flew in WW2, and even he admits the war was a gong show.

It is time to salute things other than the "SOLDIER FOLLOWING ORDERS" like the guy had any choice at that point anyways, but time to salute those who might actually do something productive in this world.

I find it interesting that I'm treated like a second class citizen, or worse, by many military people who look upon me with disdain and have typed those words in this thread. A post on page one, I believe, is a prime example of this. Without knowing anything about me except a few words typed up I'm blasted, saying I couldn't pass the test and am throwing a temper tantrum. He automatically assumes I am beneath him and anyone else who has served and I do not think that is right nor in any way being fair to me.

It's that kind of attitude that I get pissed off when pigs show it, why is it ok for a vet to do it? I'm not blind and I have every right to not support people who are doing things I feel are detrimental to this country. Fighting needless wars because our idiot politicians are scared of a boogy man or some corporation needs it bananas is a crock and I will not support those who willingly do this. I cannot support them and still have my conscience.

I was never taught anything about General Smedley Butler in school. I wonder why that was? It's been almost a hundred years since he said what he said and no one knows it, it seems, at least outside of places like ATS and his words are totally true and worth listening to. He had been there, done that, bought the t-shirt AND rode the bull yet I'm a bad guy for saying what I said? Really? War has been a racket since any of us were born and I'm the bad guy? I've yet to hear a logical, not emotional, reason why I'm wrong. It's all been crap and BS where I should bow down to someone because they are "protecting my rights" or some other such nonsense and in this day and age if you sign up then you are either stupid or brainwashed IMVHO.

America right now is the bully on the block and causing fights all over the place that do not need to be happening. This also cause more people to get pissed at us while if we weren't over there mucking everything up then maybe people would hate us less. Novel concept, eh? Anyone who support that is in the wrong, the way I see it, helping to prop up a corrupt regime.

That's fine, though. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. A little respect for a fellow human being would be nice but I guess that's too much too expect.

I was a soldier and I joined to fight, no patriotism here so I don't blame you one bit. You don't have to support the troops and you shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not doing so. But you should feel a little responsible for footing the bill, that is if you pay taxes.

originally posted by: TheSpanishArcher

I find it interesting that I'm treated like a second class citizen, or worse, by many military people who look upon me with disdain...saying I couldn't pass the test and am throwing a temper tantrum...he automatically assumes I am beneath him and anyone else who has served...

Well, there you go. Truth can be most unpleasant.

I was never taught anything about General Smedley Butler in school. I wonder why that was?

I was never taught anything about Charlie Beckwith, or Clausewitz in school. Or, really, a lot of people. John von Neumann doesn't get much love, either. But then, there's only so much school time in a basic education, and you can't cover everyone. I'm pretty sure there's not some cigar smoke filled star chamber where they loll around going "Mwa ha ha ha! Cut out the Butler material THIS YEAR TOO! MWA HA HA!"

America right now is the bully on the block and causing fights all over the place that do not need to be happening. This also cause more people to get pissed at us while if we weren't over there mucking everything up then maybe people would hate us less.

Thank your politicians for that.

A little respect for a fellow human being would be nice but I guess that's too much too expect.

The irony, it burns! Que lastima!

I agree with the OP in a lot of this.

others have said that you're fighting for freedom and rights, yet it's pretty widely accepted around these parts that during all this fighting these liberties are evaporating.

As far as the "we're just doing our jobs" argument, that's been done by police who shoot children and Nazi's, i would take a serious step back and look at what i was doing if i had to use that to justify my actions.

I know we've all been lied to and you've been drug over there not totally of your own free will. But, as you've all pointed out, you're the ones who do the fighting and protecting of freedoms with all your high tech weaponry, well get your asses back to America where the real enemy is and make us proud damn it!

a reply to: TheSpanishArcher

I'm glad you realized the day played a factor in the responses to your post. Yes, there were a lot of people who responded angrily to you. But you have to understand in many cases you're speaking directly to them, or speaking down about their brother, sister, mother, high school buddy, etc. If I came to your house and started talking smack about your sister's profession, you'd be inclined to defend your sister. As least, any good brother would.

A lot of people take it quite personally that you insult their friends and relatives. Nearly everyone knows someone or is related to someone who has served. They view your post as a personal attack and it's understandable that they would retaliate.

Myself, I have a sister who served, several friends who either have served or are serving, and several uncles and aunts who have served. Was I insulted by your post? A little, honestly.

Speaking to your employment situation, and others remarks on that, I think that since you were the one who brought it up, it's rather fair game. Whether you believe the system is what is preventing you from finding gainful employment or not is another issue, but the subject came up, and people used that as a weapon against you. I hate say it, but that's kinda on you, boss.

I understand your hatred for the military. In the past, they defended us during both world wars, and even helped secure our independence from Britain. Lately it seems they go out and push democracy to anyone who sneezes in arabic. I do have faith though, that should a threat ever come to our shores again, those fighting men and women will put themselves between you, myself, and whoever wants to take away our freedoms. And that's what I respect.

Be well, friend. I wish you the best.

I wasn't going to jump in this thread, but after reading so many posts attacking the OP, I changed my mind. The OP is right. 100% right. He/she clearly said he/she respects the soldiers in past wars (WW2). No soldier after that conflict has fought for our freedoms. Not one. I have talked to people in the military who said it is a family tradition. That's bunk to me. If your grandfather or father fought for freedom, I thank him, just as I thank my own grandfather for the sacrifice he made. Anything after that is a tradition I would not want to be a part of. I would never attacks soldiers as happened to those returning from Vietnam. They had no choice and with the exception of a few who committed atrocities, they did the job they were forced to do.

Now, however, there are no conflicts that are necessary, and none are defending our freedoms. I can see going after bin Laden, but invading Afghanistan when the Taliban was actually willing to turn him over was clearly for other reasons. Invading Iraq was also clearly for reasons other than what we were told by our dear leaders. Any soldier who joined up in the past decade is not deserving of respect, in my opinion. When you know something is wrong (the last 2 wars) and you still join, I'm sorry but I do not respect you in any way. I can sort of see the argument regarding feeding one's family, but I could not live with myself knowing that I am killing families to care for my own.

Again, I will never attack, verbally or otherwise, a current, serving soldier. I will never yell at him or her, but I will also not look him or her in the eye.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Thank you for exercising your rights that I've helped protect for the last 17 years.

Who exactly was threatening to strip us of those rights? Who were you protecting us from? The ONLY entity I know of trying to strip us of that right has been the US government.

I don't know what to tell you OP

See, I can understand that you are upset over the message. I see both sides to such a petty argument so allow me to argue both

Pro-veteran - These people, myself included ((though I usually don't include...2W2's have nothing to do with ground, naval or even air war)), whether you appreciate it or not, defend those underneath us. Like I said, I have never been to the front and don't want to be. I am not tough enough to endure what Marines, Army, Navy and a select bit of the Air Force do. I am CERTAINLY not tough enough to join any special forces until the day arrives when special forces means drawing books with crayons. So for me to attempt to understand what it is like for those under extremely deep cover or those who fight out in the open watching friends and loved ones lose life, limb and eyesight is fruitless. Hate the politicians. Hate the POTUS. Hate whatever greed offers and orders those men and women to do whatever dastardly deed you perceive they are doing but all the while understand and respect who the individual is. Don't even look at their patch or their insignia or rate or rank; look at the person. The whole 'thousand yard stare' thing will never happen to me because my entire day was building and fixing warheads. The idea of PTSD, while it is what I choose to specialize in, is completely foreign to me personally.

Look at the person under the helmet. Look at the person behind the rifle. And of course the most heartbreaking; consider who is in the box. THAT is when you'll learn to get out of this mindset that soldiers of any branch deserve to be shunned and offered ill-will. Frankly, most moments you will find that a soldier doesn't care to be thanked or even desires it, especially in public.

Colonel Jessup ((albeit fictional)) makes a good point "You see Danny, I can deal with the bullets, and the bombs, and the blood. I don't want money, and I don't want medals." ((the rest is a bit....well go read it yourself))

Many of us don't care about the stripes, the medals, the money, the benefits, or the accolades. Many of us want to do our job and if you choose not to be thankful then at least just be silent. Is that too much to ask?

Now then...

The other side - I choose not to call this side Anti-veteran...it sounds ugly and is emotionally tainted IMO. When I became an NCO my Lieutenant told me something I carry with me every day. Again...remember this comes from a NON combat veteran so keep that fresh in mind.

Lieutenant K "SSgt *****, if you rememeber this one thing from me, remember this. A good Airman is capable of defending the flag while simultaneously watching an American burn the same flag you just protected"

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with that statement. Freedom of speech means FREEDOM of speech. I support, although disagree, that you think I may be evil, brainwashed, or any combination of words you may have for me. Please note I am not putting words in your mouth...just saying

The point is you live in America and can say what you want, when you want, and how you want so long as you aren't endangering or inciting.

Are we not as citizens, active duty, reservists and veterans supposed to allow for speech even if it offends?

I don't agree with OP but I'll be damned if I live in a country where he is not allowed to say these things

Anyway...peace to all