MH17 Update: Missile That Took Down Airline ‘Undeniably’ Provided By Russian – (Unofficial)

A question to anyone -
Why do you think the report should be dismissed? The evidence is logged and sourced so it can be verified. Is there an issue with that process or is there some other reason people wont accept it.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Did you somehow miss the part where I stated its unofficial? My guess is yes.

it is a bit confusing though don't you think !

"‘Undeniably’ Provided By Russian"

Does this mean that Russia smuggled it across the border, gave it to the rebels to shoot or that Russia manufactured the missile because the latter could well be true since most of the military hardware in the Ukraine is Russian made however the argument over who may have had access to these missiles in the area might be a bit mute because its starting to look like air to air 30mm cannon was used to down flight MH17.

You don't want DJW001 in here because he would have a field day with the title of this post

Just asking in advance Xcathdra but if it was 30mm cannon then will you then say that the rebels were flying jets in the area or will you admit that you was wrong or mislead ?

Back to the crime scene comment I made.


MH17 crash: Dutch salvage team 'unable to start'

The Dutch experts arrived at the MH17 crash site early on Tuesday.

However, they have refused to talk to the rebels, relying instead on European security officials to broker a deal.

MH17 was shot down on 17 July over rebel-held territory, killing all 298 people on board.

For the moment, the salvage team will search for further human remains.

The head of the repatriation team, Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg, told Dutch broadcaster NOS that the salvage team was ready to start work removing wreckage but there was no agreement yet between the European security body OSCE and local Ukrainians.

A rebel spokesman from the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic told Russia's Interfax news agency that the Dutch experts were unhappy with "certain points of protocol on gathering the wreckage".

The spokesman was non-committal about when work might begin, saying it could happen "today, or in a week's time".

Does anyone know what the "protocol" is for gathering evidence?


Also we once again have Putin making claims that are false. Putin blamed the delay on Ukraine when clearly the fault is with the pro russian rebels.

a reply to: VirusGuard

You don't want DJW001 in here because he would have a field day with the title of this post

Funny you should say that, because you could learn best practices by studying it:

MH17 Update: Missile That Took Down Airline ‘Undeniably’ Provided By Russian – (Unofficial)

First, in keeping with ATS Terms & Conditions, he quotes the exact title of the article he links to. This title first states the topic, followed by a colon. The headline places the word "undeniably" in quotation marks so that you know it is a claim being made by the person making the report, not the news agency relaying it. Xcathedra then helpfully adds, in brackets, that the report is unofficial; this allows you judge the reliability of the person making the claim. Given the difficulty that the Dutch and OSCE investigators have had visiting the actual site, one can surmise that the "investigator" who reached that conclusion probably gathered their evidence on the internet, rendering it highly suspect.

Any questions?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Does anyone know what the "protocol" is for gathering evidence?

Normally investigator arrive on the scene rapidly. Except for the dead bodies, all of the bits of the wreckage are left in place. Each piece of wreckage is photographed and its exact position is recorded, nowadays using GPS. The pieces are given a catalogue number and any unusual aspect noted. Eventually, the pieces are collected and transported to a hangar where they can be examined more closely and the relationship of the parts puzzled together. This process can take months to accomplish. I'm not sure what the specific issue this team is having, but reports indicate that the wreckage has been tampered with.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Also we once again have Putin making claims that are false. Putin blamed the delay on Ukraine when clearly the fault is with the pro russian rebels.

Once again, the boot goes in to Putin, without any evidence to back up the kicking!

WHY is it 'clearly' the fault of the Freedom fighters according to you, i realise that is always going to be your default position, but why do you assume it is the FF fault?

You cannot conceive of a situation where the Dutch team is being unreasonable and the FF are not happy about certain of THEIR demands or conditions?

I'd imagine the paramount consideration of the Dutch team is the inspection, not whether or not they enjoy talking to one party or another.

Surely, any serious investigation team will be happy to communicate with just about anyone, anywhere to facilitate their JOB of inspecting the site, but it seems they are more concerned with playing politics, where they have absolutely NO business doing so and using that political bias as a means to explain their lack of action thus far...because 'they don't want to speak to the rebels'...well boo bloody hoo..poor inspectors, having to speak to a group in order to get done there sole reason for being there all this time, you know, a seemingly unimportant matter of the actual inspection!

Seriously, they have been dragging their heels for months..first staying in hotels in Kiev for weeks and weeks, despite assurances by both the FF and Russia that they would be escorted and looked after at the site...but no...getting holed up in the hotel was apparently more important than doing what they were supposed to do.

Now they bemoan because they don't 'want to talk to the rebels'..are these people actually investigators or a group of sullen lazy teenagers getting the hump because they can't have everything their own way!

Unreal.

a reply to: MysterX

Russian President Putin blames Ukraine for obstructing MH17 inquiry

Beijing: Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday accused Ukraine's government of interfering with the investigation into the downing of a Malaysia Airlines jet in July that killed 298 people.

Independent investigators have had little access to the wreckage of flight MH17 in territory in eastern Ukraine in the hands of pro-Russian separatists fighting Ukrainian government forces.
© Provided by IBNLive

Putin made the comments in talks with Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak on the sidelines of an Asia-Pacific conference in China. Najib called for greater access to the wreckage but Putin disputed the suggestion that pro-Russia separatists were hindering the investigation.

"The reference that the territory of the crash site is controlled by so called pro-Russian separatists is totally ungrounded," Putin said.

Then -

MH17 crash: Dutch salvage team 'unable to start'

The Dutch experts arrived at the MH17 crash site early on Tuesday.

However, they have refused to talk to the rebels, relying instead on European security officials to broker a deal.

MH17 was shot down on 17 July over rebel-held territory, killing all 298 people on board.

For the moment, the salvage team will search for further human remains.

The head of the repatriation team, Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg, told Dutch broadcaster NOS that the salvage team was ready to start work removing wreckage but there was no agreement yet between the European security body OSCE and local Ukrainians.

A rebel spokesman from the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic told Russia's Interfax news agency that the Dutch experts were unhappy with "certain points of protocol on gathering the wreckage".

The spokesman was non-committal about when work might begin, saying it could happen "today, or in a week's time".

Because it is...

What type of protocol is being required by the rebels? Secondly why are they even involved in it since the investigation is suppose to be independent?

To answer your claim I came to Pro Russia as the problem coupled with Putins inability to actually coordinate press statements.

He claims the area is not controlled by Pro Russian rebels when in fact the Pro Russia rebels are saying the complete opposite.

a reply to: VirusGuard

Really? 30mm cannon fire? No part if the wreckage is consistent with that claim. The holes we see are far too small to be from 30mm rounds. The way the plane broke up in midair is consistent with explosive decompression caused by a S2A missile, not 30mm rounds. Let's not also forget that whatever happened up there was instantaneous. There were no reports from the crew of them being under attack and no mayday calls. This once again is consistent with a S2A missile and not being under fire from another plane. Not even the Russians have mentioned the possibility of another plane being in the area after they were shown how stupid they were to insinuate the plane was attacked by an Su-25.

a reply to: MysterX

yet, you don't see the connection between the OP's and my own 'unofficial report'?

Not at all, why should I?

I propose this thread is thrown into the hoax bin where it belongs with the rest of the trash.

Problem with that is the OP says it is an unofficial report, now if he said the report was official you might have something, but he didn't and it won't.

a reply to: MysterX

Now they bemoan because they don't 'want to talk to the rebels'

Well the separatists have shown in the past they aren't afraid to take investigators and hold them, so I imagine that is on their minds.

Reuters at it again :

Many Dutch also believe the plane was downed by rebels using missiles provided by Moscow.

Source

One would think that most of the Dutch are believing that, but in reality many more are not believing that.

a reply to: Xcathdra

By seized, you mean armed and financed?

In 2007, the Bush administration financed a Sunni army — the Awakening — and Galbraith says this is responsible for the success so far in Iraq. Biden would take this to the next step and encourage the Sunnis to form their own region, which would control that army, just as the Kurdistan region controls the Peshmerga, or the Kurdistan army, Galbraith says.

Source

a reply to: GodEmperor

Sure.. Russia armed and financed the pro Russian rebels.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: VirusGuard

Really? 30mm cannon fire? No part if the wreckage is consistent with that claim. The holes we see are far too small to be from 30mm rounds. The way the plane broke up in midair is consistent with explosive decompression caused by a S2A missile, not 30mm rounds. Let's not also forget that whatever happened up there was instantaneous. There were no reports from the crew of them being under attack and no mayday calls. This once again is consistent with a S2A missile and not being under fire from another plane. Not even the Russians have mentioned the possibility of another plane being in the area after they were shown how stupid they were to insinuate the plane was attacked by an Su-25.

How do you know there were no reports of the plane being under attack or no mayday calls? The air traffic control tapes have not been released. The cockpit voice recorder tapes have not been released. The Russians provided radar data showing an SU 25 near the plane. The US with the world's most advanced satellite capabilities cannot even provide a picture of a missile smoke trail during this daylight cloudless attack. Russia has already been exonerated by German intelligence.

a reply to: Adaluncatif

The transcripts from the flight's final minutes have been released. ATC loses contact with MH17 with no indication of anything being wrong.

In regards to the Su-25, when was the last time you saw Russia mention it? It has been pointed out time and again that MH17 was flying well over the ceiling of Su-25 and over the top speed of the Su-25. Why would Ukraine send a fighter designed to attack ground targets to take out another plane?

Odds are that what the Russians caught on radar was debris from MH17 plummeting to Earth. They realized this and that's why they've never mentioned it again.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

It has been pointed out time and again that MH17 was flying well over the ceiling

No it was not, this is from the official Ukrainian state site clearly saying the service ceiling of the Su-25 is 7/10 KM. And oh yeah, planes can go higher as service ceilings.

Source

And another thing to add, not only should there be American satellite images, NATO also held an exercise close by and should have also radar Intel from them.

Source

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Xcalibur254

It has been pointed out time and again that MH17 was flying well over the ceiling

No it was not, this is from the official Ukrainian state site clearly saying the service ceiling of the Su-25 is 7/10 KM. And oh yeah, planes can go higher as service ceilings.

Source

And another thing to add, not only should there be American satellite images, NATO also held an exercise close by and should have also radar Intel from them.

Source

Well according to many here WHY ARE YOU BELIEVING ANYTHING THE UKES SAY? Arent you one of these people who says KIEV is evil? SO you will believe something from them IF it SUITS your narrative right?

I believe the MANUFACTURER OVER THE OFFICIAL UKE SITE ANYDAY. Also WIKI page on th eSU-25 has been Changed back to its PROPER SPECS BTW.

a reply to: yuppa

Because the manufacturer still gives the early service ceiling which was 7km. It`s just a bit of a bit of sloppy job from Sukhoi to not mention the updated versions. Enough proof can be found about update programs, also from Ukrainian planes.

Su-25 planes have been updated with better engines and it gives them a higher ceiling.

a reply to: Adaluncatif

Not the Russians did not release radar Data they released an edited video in a conference only for that data never to be seen again but hey did have cool graphics just felt sorry for that general. He knew the information was bogus with the magic plane that apparently went stealth on the radar. Either that or Russia has very crappie radar to lose an su at 30000 ft.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Reallyou since you made this statement what engine are they using oh and what's the thrust ratio. You just make things up don't you? After you tell me the envines we can figure out the max ceiling with thrust to weight ratios let's do the math.