The 25th anniversary of the Lazar saga...

Where's George?

This thread isn't the same without him













It's almost as if (unlike most ATS members) he has a job or something.

George, does Bob have any opinion or feelings about the alien/ufo phenomenon related to the questions of are they good/evil, do they like us/hate us, etc.?

Do you think you could persuade him to come on ATS and chat with us?

a reply to: GeorgeKnapp

Hard to tell if you're a good writer, a good thinker, or both.

The Lazar Conclusion is a simple one: The guy doesn't tell the truth. There are many ways to do this ... the best of which involves intellectually titillating an audience. One need look no further than The Oath of Sworn Testimony and extrapolate 'why' it was so constructed.

Everybody lies. There are differing reasons for why one does so. When you scoop them out by the shovelful, you wind up in a hole. Lazar resides in a deep one. Holes can be useful to some. They're homes to others.

Area 51 was well known before Lazar, as were the activities of the NSA before Snowden. We're there UFOs at Area 51? Of course there were!! LOL Does that make anything else he said true? Does that make him a more interesting character? If it did, how long would it take before we tired of him and moved on to more interesting endeavors?

originally posted by: Springer
Here you go, something REAL (as far as the guy whose discussing it anyway) to sink our teeth into for once...

www.desertcompanion.com...

George is a friend and someone I personally know is way beyond B.S.

I can't deal with Lazar logically in my own mind, can anyone?

S...

No one is beyond bs especially UFO book authors who are believers and know that the success of their books depends on padding and the gullibility of the readers. As The Gut says, Knapp doesn't always stick to journalism.

a reply to: GeorgeKnapp

Thanks for the reply.

I was mistaken as it turned out to be a Norio Hayakawa interview. The text is on Frank's site The Strange Behaviour of Bob Lazar (alleged Area 51 scientist). Like yourself, he also remains undecided about Lazar.

We arrived at Bob's residence around 11 a.m., or so, to the best of my recollection. They took us to the living room, which at that time did not seem to me to be fully furnished and "lived". They showed us Bob's study room, which also did not seem to me to be fully furnished. Yes, there were a few books on physics on the bookshelf and there were computers on his desk. In any case, the interview was conducted by a writer from a magazine and I was simply there as an interpreter. The interview lasted about two hours.

When we arrived at his house, there were about 5 or 6 men in the house. At first I thought they were simply Bob's friends. But later on I noticed something unusual about some of those men. It seemed that throughout the interview, whether in the living room or in Bob's study room, two men were constantly on each side of Bob. One of them seemed to have a rectangular black communications equipment with him. Perhaps it could have been a cellphone (although this was in 1990).

When we moved to the kitchen area, those two men also moved alongside Bob. When we moved to Bob's study room, those men also moved together with Bob. So we asked Bob, "who are these men?" Bob simply said that, "don't worry, these are just friends".

Obviously I wasn't there. The circumstances could have been theatrical with friends/associates in the role of MiB/goons/bodyguards. Their behaviour, as related, sounds clownish. Or maybe they were official? More shades of grey?

p.s. thanks to B for finding the link

a reply to: suz62

For all we know he's a disinformation agent who is payed by the government. So, maybe he IS cashing in on it. Just saying.

But I don't think so.

Bob is a smart guy allright - but he did not study @MIT because he is either lazy, not smart enough or both. He simply plays that part. Has been doing so since being a youngster. He could be a compulsatory liar. But I don't think so either. If my analysis of Bob is correct he's trapped in a lie he created himself to protect his interests. He has no way out without disgracing himself and his dear ones. So he maintains low profile and hopes we will forget.

In the 1970s, as a young man, he dropped out of the school system. Maybe he applied for MIT etc. - but he never was let in (of course). So, here we have this smart guy, that knows about electronics and may have read about physics - enough to throw around some jargon. He needs money, like we al do, but can't find a steady job so he registers with various agencies to see what can be done. And to enhance his chances - he twists the truth a bit. Suddenly he studied at MIT.

It may surprise you, but none of these agencies really CHECK the statements of their applicants. They simply assume what you tell them is true. Even nowadays, let alone in the 1970s/1980s. They simply want to make money and if you lie it's YOUR fault, not theirs. They simply kick you out when you are found out, that's all.

Sure enough the clients (Army/DoD) of such agencies will initiate a background search / screening: have you been in jail, are you an enemy of the state etc. But they will assume the agency did the check on your professional credentials and only check a small sample of the candidates - it is very expensive. And mostly there is no need for much scrutinity either: most workers in secret facilities don't know any secrets other than the location of the facility. (and can't even keep that a secret). There's compartimentalisation, need-to-know, layering of tasks and responsibilities etc. and so you can work on a secret project - but all you do is soldering chips to a board or checking other folks circuitry all day. It's not all rocket science, folks.

Anyway. We all know - it has been official for a while - that A51 existed in those days. And they hired folks to do work. If there is a lot of work and there aren't many candidates a guy like Lazar may have slipped through. He was not a criminal, he was not registered as an enemy of the state, they needed a guy with hands and half a brain and Bob seemed to have proper credentials. Actually, maybe he was hired because he knew how to hold a soldering iron, sounds plausible to me.

So, yes, maybe he worked there as an electronics guy. But maybe somebody that really studied at MIT read his CV and started chatting with Bobby - and after a while smelled a rat. Maybe Bob started bragging about it himself, in an attempt to show his importance (he was a very young man in those days). Maybe Bob started to ask the wrong questions or gave the wrong answers. So, somebody decided to recheck his credentials. And he was found out, exposed and kicked out. Probably was debriefed in a not so nice way and sent away.

Now, imagine Bob: just being debriefed and kicked out. The agency he worked for has fired him. Maybe he told others he studie at MIT too, his friends, neighbours, relatives. And now these darned smart asses in Dreamland discovered he was a fraude and kicked him out. What if they tell? Think Bob, think fast!

So, Bob invents this "alien tech" fantasy. It perfectly explains why he had to leave S4 and why nobody can find his educational records - the government stole them, of course .

I can image some folks over at S4 reading about their former buddy Lazar: "Hey, Joe, did you read about Bob? You know, the guy they kicked out because he lied about his education? Nice guy, glasses? Well, look a the nonsense he writes.. alien tech. If only! Well, we won't be seeing him here anymore.."

Now, this is pure speculation. But given the option, I believe this is a more trustworthy story than Bob ever told. So, with what I know -admittedly limited knowledge- Bob is full of hot air, that's all.

a reply to: ForteanOrg


I spent 5 years working for a defense contractor. A co-worker who had a higher level clearance and was working on the most sensitive project we had at the time left early one day, informing the security guard that he had to go because the aliens were here to take him. Didn't see him again for months.

The oddest folk slip through the security clearance cracks.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Good speculation, but it's only speculation.

Bob is a smart guy allright - but he did not study @MIT because he is either lazy, not smart enough or both. He simply plays that part. Has been doing so since being a youngster.

Do you have proof that this is a true statement, or just speculation? If it is true then checking out his high school records should suffice. Looking at them would proved a record of his academic history, as well as his social profile. While this may not exclude MIT from the mix, it could provide some merit as to this statement of yours.

It may surprise you, but none of these agencies really CHECK the statements of their applicants. They simply assume what you tell them is true.

This may surprise you as well, but back in the day it was assumed that you were lying when they did a background check. Sometimes people slip through, and this is true, but he was hired during the height of the Cold War and governmental contract companies didn't like to take chances that might cause them to lose those contracts.

And mostly there is no need for much scrutiny either: most workers in secret facilities don't know any secrets other than the location of the facility. (and can't even keep that a secret). There's compartmentalization, need-to-know, layering of tasks and responsibilities etc. and so you can work on a secret project - but all you do is soldering chips to a board or checking other folks circuitry all day. It's not all rocket science, folks.

The people who work on these project often times don't know what they are doing on the small picture scene, but they do know what they are working for on the big picture scene. The people who get hired for these jobs are smart enough to piece together what they are doing. So while their individual tasks are compartmentalized, their minds are not.

We all know - it has been official for a while - that A51 existed in those days. And they hired folks to do work. If there is a lot of work and there aren't many candidates a guy like Lazar may have slipped through. He was not a criminal, he was not registered as an enemy of the state, they needed a guy with hands and half a brain and Bob seemed to have proper credentials.

Most people weren't fully aware of Area 51 until both the Lazar story and those EPA lawsuits came to light during the late 80's early 90's. As to the other point here of Lazar just being hired because of busy work was needed (paraphrasing of course) You do know that during a security background check (which are preformed on a regular basis) the subject is polygraphed.

So, yes, maybe he worked there as an electronics guy. But maybe somebody that really studied at MIT read his CV and started chatting with Bobby - and after a while smelled a rat. Maybe Bob started bragging about it himself, in an attempt to show his importance (he was a very young man in those days). Maybe Bob started to ask the wrong questions or gave the wrong answers. So, somebody decided to recheck his credentials. And he was found out, exposed and kicked out. Probably was debriefed in a not so nice way and sent away.

WOW! if this assumption was true then how do you explain all of the weirdness that was taking place during this timeframe, and that was directly related to the event of 25 years ago? (Governmental agencies following people around, Mystery Agents being seen following people around, harassing people, massive wire taps that were being done. etc. etc.)

****SIDE NOTE****

While the information in the story IS hard to believe (oddly enough it's not to far off to what a certain poster posted a while ago) It has been consistent over the years (with some detraction by Lazar when he was trying to get his life together, and seemed like he didn't like the attention this story was giving him. This isn't unusual though by people put into a situation that is giving then to much lime light, when all they wanted was just to report what they saw or experienced)

Many of the scientific clues Lazar dropped 25 years ago, have seemed to come to light as being real science. This can be debated back and forth, but the facts are the facts.

So while the whole Lazar Story is an interesting one I have to say; "does it matter?" Personally I'm not sure if I want to believe the story, but there is enough evidence to prove more then half of his story is true.

It's been 25 years since this story was brought into the light and if true that means 25 years of semi-friendly working with aliens. How could that be a bad thing?
On the other hand it also means that for the last 25 years we've all been tricked into believing this story. Oh wait, not everyone believes this story so that doesn't matter. Oh wait again, either way it doesn't matter since it's not like anybody here will be effected by a lack of aliens, or a mass of aliens.

originally posted by: draknoir2
The oddest folk slip through the security clearance cracks.

For a brief period of time I had a TOP SECRET SIOP-ESI security clearance. I didn't see no aliens. But then I guess I didn't have a need to know.

One of the most compelling aspects of the story that's new to me is Bob initially asking George Knapp not to air the video unless he was killed. Obviously that could have just been something he said to add authenticity to his story but it just creeps me out a little. Imagine being fearful for your life like that. Pretty awful.

I guess the thing that I take away from the Lazar story at this point is, 25 years down the road, what more do we know? I say not much. This fantastical story of aliens and government intrigue has succumbed to the same thing that happens to so many other such stories. It peters out into dead ends. No new information or hard evidence appears, no new witnesses show up to confirm or deny the story. And we're left to endlessly sift through the same old stuff for the rest of time, believing or not, depending on our own predispositions.

This is the kind of thing that makes an old UFO fan like myself just tired and disheartened. It's the same old thing happening again. Promises of wonderful, verifiable revelations, followed by a lot of excuses and nonsense and nothing.

a reply to: duaneology
Which lends credence to the story. George Knapp wasn't some green horned journalist at the time, and neither was the station decision makers. If they had smelled something funny, they would have passed on this piece.

Personally (George Knapp free to agree or disagree) I got the feeling that Lazar was using Knapp as his dead man switch. Hence the "If I die" part of agreeing to the interview.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

This is the kind of thing that makes an old UFO fan like myself just tired and disheartened. It's the same old thing happening again. Promises of wonderful, verifiable revelations, followed by a lot of excuses and nonsense and nothing.

That's the one thing this story is lacking. The "Promise" where was it at the time, and where is it today?

originally posted by: Guyfriday
That's the one thing this story is lacking. The "Promise" where was it at the time, and where is it today?

It's an implied promise. The indication that Lazar was going to be able to produce something solid that could be verified and confirmed and undeniable. The piece of Element 115, which he was never able smuggle out of the place up his butt or anything. Something on letterhead. Photos. Names. Something that couldn't just be made up by somebody with a good imagination and a passing familiarity with the UFO field. Where is it?

I suppose you could say that is why Lazar is still alive. Because he was never able to prove anything. On the other hand... he was never able to prove anything. Why would he be in danger in the first place?

*shrug*

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

Now, imagine Bob: just being debriefed and kicked out. The agency he worked for has fired him. Maybe he told others he studie at MIT too, his friends, neighbours, relatives. And now these darned smart asses in Dreamland discovered he was a fraude and kicked him out. What if they tell? Think Bob, think fast!

So, Bob invents this "alien tech" fantasy. It perfectly explains why he had to leave S4 and why nobody can find his educational records - the government stole them, of course

.

First off he would have been on a casual contract basis with K/M not a permanent or fixed basis and as such he could have been let go at any time so he wouldn't really need to invent anything.

But say he did, if he was worried that his educational background was going to be called out and all agencies etc made aware. So he was concerned about his future employability and to counter that "invented this alien tech fantasy".

For a supposedly smart guy that's a hell of a dumb move.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: ForteanOrg
Good speculation, but it's only speculation.

Yes, pure speculation, as I said. But the circumstantial evidence fits my theory. It seems to make sense, a lot more sense than other theories I heard / read.

This may surprise you as well, but back in the day it was assumed that you were lying when they did a background check.

They still do, rest assured . My point wasn't so much they did not do a check - they do - but the nature of the check. A screening does not involve checking your diplomas etc. Screening is all about your character: can you be manipulated, are you vulnerable to blackmail, are you in debt, do you hang out with extemists, have you been in jail.. stuff like that. Checking your school diploma's is not part of the process, that's HRs responsibility. And they often delegate it to the external agency they work with. Whom don't have a clue on how to check credentials like that so they simply believe it - if you say so...

Sometimes people slip through, and this is true, but he was hired during the height of the Cold War and governmental contract companies didn't like to take chances that might cause them to lose those contracts.

If you're a big agency - like the one Lazar worked for - you are entitled to an occasional error. Such is life. They probably immediately fired Lazar and told him never to come back. That suffices.

The people who work on these project often times don't know what they are doing on the small picture scene, but they do know what they are working for on the big picture scene. The people who get hired for these jobs are smart enough to piece together what they are doing. So while their individual tasks are compartmentalized, their minds are not.

I don't agree, it's just the other way around. They do NOT know the big picture, they don't need to know. There are only a handful of people who know the big picture - and they in turn don't know about the details. That way, any enemy has to kidnap / blackmail a significant number of people to find out what is going on.

Most people weren't fully aware of Area 51 until both the Lazar story and those EPA lawsuits came to light during the late 80's early 90's. As to the other point here of Lazar just being hired because of busy work was needed (paraphrasing of course) You do know that during a security background check (which are preformed on a regular basis) the subject is polygraphed.

Nope, not for all. Would be a waste of money. Simple risk analysis. Like you don't wear a helmet when you drive a car.

If Bob was hired to - say - solder components to a circuit board in a secure environment, he would not have had access to a large part of the base. He would not have been told what he was working on either. His work would not improve if he knew he was working on a part of the new stealth bomber - he does not have to know so you don't tell him. He can't (mis)use what he does not have / know.

Also, these "top-secret minions" - the ones that do the bulk of the work - are frequently swapped out and a new batch swapped in. That way they ensure nobody has much of a chance to build a real knowledge network inside the company. Polygraphs are expensive, can be manipulated and aren't very trustworthy. Security folks know this and so rather not use them. Note that Lazar did take polygraphs but only after he squealed. He actually failed the first one he took.

WOW! if this assumption was true then how do you explain all of the weirdness that was taking place during this timeframe, and that was directly related to the event of 25 years ago? (Governmental agencies following people around, Mystery Agents being seen following people around, harassing people, massive wire taps that were being done. etc. etc.)

I don't know if there is any real proof for "all that weirdness". If you refer to the occasions that Lazar predicted filghts of objects, that's not weird at all in the context of my speculation. I assume Bob WAS in there, and had limited access to partially classified data. But the experiments with the orbs, balloons or whatever they were may well either have been decoys or not regarded to form a significant risk when discovered. Note that these flights continued on schedule ever after the military already knew Lazar had leaked. Seems a bit inappropriate for a "very secret mission", don't you think? I don't know if government agencies followed people around - but even if, that's what they seem to do in America. Like wire-tapping: has been going on for ages. So I can't judge if the 'weirdness' was actually not within American standard limits for those days..

Many of the scientific clues Lazar dropped 25 years ago, have seemed to come to light as being real science. This can be debated back and forth, but the facts are the facts.

As a young kid in the 1960s I "predicted" that cars would run on water when I would grow up. I "predicted" that we would have satellite TV. I "predicted" that we would have walls with "paper" that would change colour and shapes at the flick of a switch. I predicted flat screen TV's, portable computers and time delayed viewing of TV programs. And lo! and behold: cars now run on hydrogen (close enough, I'd say), we indeed have satellite TV and we already have paper that can be loaded with images (mostly used in e-readers, but close enough) and the other predictions were totally spot on. Does that mean I had access to a wealth of mysterious knowledge as a kid - or is it more plausible I was just a smart, imaginative kid with a keen interest in technology and science?

So while the whole Lazar Story is an interesting one I have to say; "does it matter?" Personally I'm not sure if I want to believe the story, but there is enough evidence to prove more then half of his story is true.

Actually exactly why I believe my speculation / hypothesis may be right. I don't have any proof of us working with aliens - and if I had I would not tell y'all of course. But there is proof there is an Area 51, there is some evidence Bob was in there and also that he has been lying about at least his education and tries to mask that by telling bogus stories about his history being "erased" by the US.

All in all, I believe my hypothesis is plausible.

originally posted by: Guyfriday

As to the other point here of Lazar just being hired because of busy work was needed (paraphrasing of course) You do know that during a security background check (which are preformed on a regular basis) the subject is polygraphed.

Polygraph exams mean exactly squat. I've been polygraphed twice. the first time, I lied like a trooper and passed with flying colors anyhow. The second time, I told God's Own Truth, and failed. That time required extra grumbling legwork on the part of the investigators to verify that it was me telling the truth and not the machine.

Polygraph machines are just Voodoo generators.

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Guyfriday

As to the other point here of Lazar just being hired because of busy work was needed (paraphrasing of course) You do know that during a security background check (which are preformed on a regular basis) the subject is polygraphed.

Polygraph exams mean exactly squat. I've been polygraphed twice. the first time, I lied like a trooper and passed with flying colors anyhow. The second time, I told God's Own Truth, and failed. That time required extra grumbling legwork on the part of the investigators to verify that it was me telling the truth and not the machine.

Polygraph machines are just Voodoo generators.

This is 100% accurate.

There is a damn good reason polygraph results are inadmissible in court.

antipolygraph.org...

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

They still do, rest assured

. My point wasn't so much they did not do a check - they do - but the nature of the check. A screening does not involve checking your diplomas etc. Screening is all about your character: can you be manipulated, are you vulnerable to blackmail, are you in debt, do you hang out with extemists, have you been in jail.. stuff like that. Checking your school diploma's is not part of the process, that's HRs responsibility. And they often delegate it to the external agency they work with. Whom don't have a clue on how to check credentials like that so they simply believe it - if you say so...

I had to turn over copies of ALL of my paperwork for one of my background checks - diplomas, birth cert, RTO license (which the Fed already had their OWN copy of) even my friggin' marriage license, for God's sakes! That was just for the backgrounding, before it ever really got into "HR". It probably depends on the Agency doing the check more than the level of the clearance.

a reply to: nenothtu

Interesting. FYI, in my country we have two 'secret services' (the AIVD and the MIVD) that do background checks. They recently published a guide that outlines how their procedures work. You'll need to provide a lot of detailed information, depending on the security clearance level / task at hand. I like it a lot when 'secret' services simply tell the public how they work - after all, they do their work in the interest of the public. Individual cases should neve be discussed, but the general approach should be out there in the open.

There has recently been growing demand for a greater insight into the factors considered when screening candidates for so-called positions involving confidentiality. In broad terms, the security services check their honesty, independence, loyalty and integrity. The new guide defines exactly what is meant by these criteria.

In addition, it outlines the indicators used in assessing whether a person is suitable for a position involving confidentiality. These are related to specific risks associated with the task in question. Factors taken into account include alcohol or drug dependency and susceptibility to corruption, although the weight attached to each of these indicators may vary from position to position. Ultimately, every screening procedure is different.

The guide also describes the objections and appeals procedure.

Bob is a good honset guy for most any angle.
Lazar is not far off the point....