Jesus vs. Yahweh - The Future of Mankind Hangs in the Balance

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Akragon

Really? Because I don't see it. You continue to make these claims but could you back it up? I hear these same vague arguments from many on this site, that Paul did this and that, but with no real explanation.

Thanks

the doctrine of Faith alone is all the evidence you need...

As I've said numerous times in this thread and others... Faith alone is simply not enough...

this idea makes nothing we can do worthy of making God happy... and even states that those who do not work are still justified by their faith... but Jesus and James both say without works of faith... there is NO faith

Faith alone is nothing but words... it has no meaning, and nothing to back it...

Jesus states specifically that good works glorify God...

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

The doctrine of Grace by Faith alone is Nothing Jesus taught...

Saved by Faith alone is a lie...

and the sad part is most don't even realise it...

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: borntowatch

God, Jehovah, YHWH is no tyrant.
He is the King and a Judge and He judged sinners and they were condemned for their sin, simple.

we are no longer under the law, but under THE law of love.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

In this sense, Yahweh was a Guardian.

Mathew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The Law won't save a person only Faith will but the failure to follow the Law can ruin a person still. It never went away.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

This is a critical misunderstanding most Christians have...

"the law" of moses has never saved anyone... its a man made law...

Jesus himself broke that law.... Hes actually speaking of the "royal law" which is the law of love...

that which has always been, and has never changed... and never will

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: jmdewey60

24,999 are correct, in the belief that Christian theology should be based on the Bible.

The question was which are correct in their INTERPRETATION.

If they really have the Holy Spirit guiding them to understand these scriptures. then they should all agree on what is taught IN the bible, but of course this is not the case since they all disagree on some things.

Don't know, as I've never belonged to a denomination and don't agree with the premise of them. I'm a "Bible believing Christian." There isn't a whole, whole lot to interpret. The Bible says what it says. All these denominations come from the fact that not many actually believe the Bible. Find 10 Bible believing, faith alone Christians, and they WILL all agree. Doubt you'll find all 10 of them on this site, I've only ever really seen 1 other poster that believes the Bible. Thing is, I don't believe that people receive the Holy Spirit until they've believed on Jesus Christ. So it would make a lot of sense that not many can understand the plain words of the Bible. A person that isn't saved, metaphysically can't believe and understand the Bible.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: graphuto
You people don't hate me. You hate God and the Bible.
Oh well...

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

We may dislike what you become because of what you believe in the bible...

The fact that you tell people they hate God because they disagree with you disgusts me personally... which is also bearing false witness against others.... but I do not hate you or the bible... and certainly not God

You should check yourself... big time!

I don't tell people they hate God because they disagree with me. They disagree with the Bible. The Bible plainly says :

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: graphuto

More christianisms, the martyr mentality. Nobody said they hate you. And nobody said they hate the bible (at least in this thread). Hey let me ask you, which of the 25,000 denominations are correct in their interpretation?

Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and say that no one in this thread has spoken to me and of God and the Bible with contempt? Contempt = Hatred.

a reply to: graphuto

Yes I will, you obviously don't know what hatred is, which again is typical of most christians when they claim they are being persecuted for their faith. but usually the christian is just being an a-hole, which is the case here. You are the one damning people to hell and calling them false prophets. There is no hate in this statement. I'm just calling a spade. Try understanding people, and not jumping to the burn the heretic language right away, it usually works better.

Again you are claiming people are hating God (in the above post to Akragon), because they don't agree with your interpretation of a very heterogenous book. I would urge you to read beyond your small denominational literature, and thought process, and see that down through the past 2000 years christianity has never agreed on interpretation, or even which books should be 'in'. For fun read the notes on NET bible. You will see just from that, which is a very conservative evangelical translation. You can get a small glimpse of textual criticism. There are variants, and omissions, interpretational disputes etc. There is no "the bible". That is a modern invention. The scriptures have been wrestled over from the day they were written.

a reply to: graphuto


As per usual you quote Paul as if it means anything to me...

The bible says a lot of thing that any sane rational person would disagree with... That does not mean they hate God...

The same book says you should stone bratty or disobedient children... You'd be locked up if you even considered such disgusting things... And rightly so...

Seriously... Get a grip on reality

Just because the bible says something does not make it true, or just... Or even fair

Also notice that passage you quoted says "those without understanding"... Clearly you can include yourself in that...

Try applying a bit of context to your quotes... You highlight a few words and apply them to anyone who disagrees with you

a reply to: zardust

Then you don't know how to read.

Again, it isn't "my interpretation."
It's what the Bible says.
Why does me, repeating what the Bible says, make me an a-hole? Calling me that, that is contempt, and hatred. Straight from your mouth!
I didn't damn anyone to hell, they're condemned already. Just because I am letting people know what the Bible says doesn't mean I'm damning anyone to hell. That's what the Bible says. Take it up with God.

Good day.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: graphuto


As per usual you quote Paul as if it means anything to me...

The bible says a lot of thing that any sane rational person would disagree with... That does not mean they hate God...

The same book says you should stone bratty or disobedient children... You'd be locked up if you even considered such disgusting things... And rightly so...

Seriously... Get a grip on reality

Just because the bible says something does not make it true, or just... Or even fair

Also notice that passage you quoted says "those without understanding"... Clearly you can include yourself in that...

Try applying a bit of context to your quotes... You highlight a few words and apply them to anyone who disagrees with you

Sorry man, I actually believe the Bible.
The only reason anything is true, or just, or fair, is based off the Bible.
Not our own understanding.

Also, just curious if any of you guys are sodomites. (Homosexual)

Just wondering because that's what the Bible says that a reprobate mind leads to, and it would make a lot of sense if some of you were.

The same book says you should stone bratty or disobedient children... You'd be locked up if you even considered such disgusting things... And rightly so...

It doesn't really say that at all :

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

This doesn't necessarily mean a small child, or even a child at all. It says son. In fact, we can see from the context that this is a person who has reached the age of accountability. They're a glutton, and a drunkard. Last time I checked, kids weren't drunkards or gluttons. They know the rules, they can think and understand.
This person is stubborn and rebellious. The parents have literally tried EVERYTHING on this person, yet they still continue doing evil.

At this time, Israel was called unto God to be a holy people, and the laws they lived by everyday were a bit different from what we adhere to now.
And of course a person would be locked up today. We are Godless as a nation, and have gotten so far away from God and the Bible that people wouldn't dream of doing such things.

How often do you think it actually had to happen, the stoning of a man's son? Probably only a handful of times. Public execution does a lot to curb behaviour.

a reply to: Akragon

This is a critical misunderstanding most Christians have...

"the law" of moses has never saved anyone... its a man made law...

Jesus himself broke that law.... Hes actually speaking of the "royal law" which is the law of love...

that which has always been, and has never changed... and never will

God saves.
The Law of Moses, or what we call the Old Testament, represents a principle of how God goes about saving.
That sort of thing does not just go into oblivion with the advent of the New Testament.
Jesus did not break the Law so much as to become condemned by the Law through the doings of the people who were themselves supposed to be those who were to uphold the Law and to properly interpret it.

@graphuto

Quick question, if you don't mind. What is your opinion of Christians that don't obey all of Gods laws and commandments? For the record, I am not referring to some of the more heinous ones as you and I already discussed those in my morality thread. There you said if the law (government) permitted it you would follow them (not necessarily taking pleasure in them though).

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

It's impossible for anyone to obey all of God's laws and commandments. That was kind of the point of Jesus coming. I'm far from perfect myself, obviously. I smoke, and heck, I don't even go to church . I've not set foot in a church since I was about 14-15 years old (I just turned 29). I watch porn sometimes. I'm also guilty of a number of other things daily that I can't even list.(Not for fear of getting banned or anything, I just don't realize each and every sin I commit every day.)
So it's not like I'm sitting here with a holier than thou attitude, being hypocritical and asking people to live perfect lives. I'm just asking people to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So I don't really understand the question. What are you trying to bait me into here?

a reply to: graphuto

Some laws from Leviticus I was curious to know if you followed (If not, why not?) since you believe the Old Testament laws still apply. The question is extended to anyone else who also believes the OT laws are to be adhered to.

Eating fat or blood. (3:17)
Eating animals that don't both chew cud and have a divided hoof. (11:4-7)
Eating or touching the carcass of any seafood without fins or scales. (11:13-19)
Mixing fabrics in clothing. (19:19)
Trimming your beard or cutting your hair at the sides. (19:27)
Not standing in the presence of the elderly. (19:32)
Working on the Sabbath. (23:3)

Isn't knowingly not following them (or others) a form of rebellion against God?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

The Bible explains it better than I can :

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

There were specific laws and ordinances that were to be in effect until Christ, as those things were just a shadow of Christ.

Meats/Drinks/Sabbaths/Holy Days/Carnal Ordinances were all done away with in Jesus.
Those things you listed were just that, (the above), not commandments of God to all of humanity.
It isn't like we pick and choose which laws/commandments to follow and which ones not to. These things were specifically mentioned, and done away with.

Also, most of the ones you listed were not commanded unto the whole tribe of Israel, but specifically the Levites, for they did the work of the tabernacle / temple.

I hope that answers your question.

a reply to: graphuto

That addressed some of them, thank you. But what about the others?

Mixing fabrics in clothing. (19:19)
Trimming your beard or cutting your hair at the sides. (19:27)
Not standing in the presence of the elderly. (19:32)

Or this one from Deuteronomy 22:12?
"You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself."

Again, in Numbers 15:37-39.
The LORD also spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel, and tell them that they shall make for themselves tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and that they shall put on the tassel of each corner a cord of blue. "It shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, so as to do them and not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you played the harlot"

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Well, those are all carnal ordinances. Pertaining to flesh; fleshly; sensual; opposed to spiritual. A physical, earthly law/custom/ritual. At this point, meaningless, physical things the people did with no current spiritual or physical application.

Other, direct commandments, that have both spiritual and physical applications, are still in effect, unless specifically done away with in the new testament.

a reply to: graphuto

I agree. They are mostly absurd also.

So what laws do you believe apply from the OT?