First hint of 'life after death' in biggest ever scientific study

originally posted by: OneManArmy
Funny that, because he made no assertions to that when he was talking on the radio yesterday or today.

Yeah, and why do you think that is?

a reply to: GetHyped

Like I said, that's just flawed reasoning and surprise, sometimes Researchers say things that are flawed.

It doesn't make sense to expect a person that's dying to be looking for a picture or a penguin on the shelf. In many of these experiences the main focus seems to be on their bodies being operated on and family members, not penguins somewhere on a shelf.

The smart thing to do would to have a picture or sign near their bodies where they will naturally be focused when having these experiences.

Have the top of surgeons caps in different colors or put a sign or a random generated numbers on the top of the surgeons caps. Or place a sign over the patient with a random generated number. A lot of times, a person will have these experiences and come back and describe the tools a surgeon was using or things a surgeon was saying. So it stands to reason that you want to put this signs and numbers where the person having the NDE will most likely be focused, not a penguin or picture put on a shelf somewhere. Why would they be focused on a penguin on a shelf when they're dying?

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: OneManArmy
Funny that, because he made no assertions to that when he was talking on the radio yesterday or today.

Yeah, and why do you think that is?

I dont know, maybe you can tell me?

You seem to have all of lifes answers?

a reply to: neoholographic

Why would they be more inclined to look at a random number generator or signs/pictures near their bodies? The whole point is that the staff AND the patient don't know what the pictures are. So, at best you're suggesting that the study is inconclusive, then? That is a very weak position to take. The study clearly failed, but people want to believe sooooooo hard they tout this as "proof" of their beliefs when it's blatantly not.

a reply to: OneManArmy

Because evidently he doesn't want to say "Oh yeah, my null hypothesis wasn't rejected, sorry for the media fanfare!". Like others in this thread, he appears too invested to approach this with any measure of intellectual honesty.

It's there for all to see. It's daft to even deny the null hypothesis was failed to be rejected. Clearly some people are too emotionally invested in the idea of life after death to see this for what it is. Crappy science.

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: neoholographic

Why would they be more inclined to look at a random number generator or signs/pictures near their bodies? The whole point is that the staff AND the patient don't know what the pictures are. So, at best you're suggesting that the study is inconclusive, then? That is a very weak position to take. The study clearly failed, but people want to believe sooooooo hard they tout this as "proof" of their beliefs when it's blatantly not.

If this study failed, then you need to phone the doctor and let him know. Because hes very much of the opinion that something does continue after brain death.
But some people will force their beliefs on others with no evidence and just their own over-inflated egos as evidence.
Good luck with that, Im still open minded on the whole thing, because guess what?
I really dont know either way. But Ive seen ghosts, and the experience of my own mothers death suggests the opposite to what you are talking about. Excuse me if I take personal experience over inflated ego.

a reply to: GetHyped

Why, have you bothered to read an NDE experience? They're focused on their bodies and lots of times they describe exactly what's going on around their bodies.

So the study clearly did not fail. Maybe in your world of make believe it failed because you have no answers.

Like I said, the focus of these experiences is not on a random penguin on the wall but what's going on around them.

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: neoholographic

Why would they be more inclined to look at a random number generator or signs/pictures near their bodies? The whole point is that the staff AND the patient don't know what the pictures are. So, at best you're suggesting that the study is inconclusive, then? That is a very weak position to take. The study clearly failed, but people want to believe sooooooo hard they tout this as "proof" of their beliefs when it's blatantly not.

If this study failed, then you need to phone the doctor and let him know. Because hes very much of the opinion that something does continue after brain death.
But some people will force their beliefs on others with no evidence and just their own over-inflated egos as evidence.
Good luck with that, Im still open minded on the whole thing, because guess what?
I really dont know either way. But Ive seen ghosts, and the experience of my own mothers death suggests the opposite to what you are talking about. Excuse me if I take personal experience over inflated ego.

Great points!!

The silly things you hear on a message board.

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: OneManArmy

Because evidently he doesn't want to say "Oh yeah, my null hypothesis wasn't rejected, sorry for the media fanfare!". Like others in this thread, he appears too invested to approach this with any measure of intellectual honesty.

It's there for all to see. It's daft to even deny the null hypothesis was failed to be rejected. Clearly some people are too emotionally invested in the idea of life after death to see this for what it is. Crappy science.

Well then prove it, make yourself famous, because this doctor is "fooling" the world right now.
His 4 years of study on this one subject and all those years at medical school are obviously inferior to your superior intellect.

The fact is we still dont know, so acting like you know just shows your own ignorance.
There are some things in life we will never know for sure.
And there will always be those that deny the elephant in the living room no matter how much evidence lands on their head.
The fact that many people from different religions and beliefs systems have very similar experiences counts for nothing eh?
Even though these NDE stories have been around for decades. SMH.

Duplicate post...please delete.

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: neoholographic

Why would they be more inclined to look at a random number generator or signs/pictures near their bodies? The whole point is that the staff AND the patient don't know what the pictures are. So, at best you're suggesting that the study is inconclusive, then? That is a very weak position to take. The study clearly failed, but people want to believe sooooooo hard they tout this as "proof" of their beliefs when it's blatantly not.

If this study failed, then you need to phone the doctor and let him know. Because hes very much of the opinion that something does continue after brain death.
But some people will force their beliefs on others with no evidence and just their own over-inflated egos as evidence.
Good luck with that, Im still open minded on the whole thing, because guess what?
I really dont know either way. But Ive seen ghosts, and the experience of my own mothers death suggests the opposite to what you are talking about. Excuse me if I take personal experience over inflated ego.

Sorry, but when you straight up say "I have seen ghosts" so casually, it's hard to say you aren't biased. Subjective experience is subjective experience. There's SO MUCH psychology related stuff going on when people claim to have seen paranormal things. When one person starts screaming "I JUST SAW SOMETHING MOVE THERE!" people will also say they saw something that they would describe as ghost. That's just how we work. There are various social experiments that describe our behaviour.

Another person might have interpreted what you think you saw completely differently. So sorry if I don't take your experience as something solid. It's hard to not sound like an ass when you tell people that their beliefs are all in their head, especially when it comes down to touchy life and death topics and religion etc.

originally posted by: TheCable

Sorry, but when you straight up say "I have seen ghosts" so casually, it's hard to say you aren't biased. Subjective experience is subjective experience. There's SO MUCH psychology related stuff going on when people claim to have seen paranormal things. When one person starts screaming "I JUST SAW SOMETHING MOVE THERE!" people will also say they saw something that they would describe as ghost. That's just how we work. There are various social experiments that describe our behaviour.

Okay sherlock, let me enlighten you as to why I say I have seen ghosts...

Because I have. Should I lie?

My aunt committed suicide when I was around 8 years old.

Before I had even found out about it, I had a strange experience in which I had a sleep paralysis episode where my aunt was drifting across the landing outside my bedroom with a man who to this day I have no idea who it was. They were both waving goodbye. They drifted across my doorway 3 times and then stopped.
I found out about 3 weeks later that my aunt was dead.

As for the time with my mother, she had had a major stroke, the doctors said she was brain dead and would not make it through the night.

The whole night I was trying to calm my mother and speaking to her, explaining that the brain is still a mostly unknown entity and that the doctors really didnt know.
I went home in the morning for my sister to take over watching over her.
While I was at home in bed my "brain dead" mother briefly came out of her coma, asked where I was and then said "We beat them" and then slid back into her coma. She came out of her coma about 4 times, which the so called "expert" said was impossible, but I saw it with my own eyes as did the rest of the family.
Well to cut a long story short, a week later she had another stroke and was back to how she was on the first night.
My sister went up to her and said in front of me.."Its okay mum, we will be okay", within 5 seconds you could see the colour begin to drain from my mothers body.
This taught me one thing in life.. Everything happens for a reason.

To say Im biased would be an understatement, seeing things with your own eyes has a funny way of shaping your beliefs.
But if Im honest with myself, I still dont know for sure...NONE OF US DO.
Thats what makes the subject so damn interesting.

As for the whole "psychology" argument. Have you seen the history of so called psychiatry?
Like I said to my mother, these self appointed "experts" arent what their egos make them believe to be true.
They believe their own arrogant opinions based on years of indoctrination, I mean education.
They truly believe that after years of study, that they cant possibly be wrong.

One thing us human beings are very good at is being wrong.

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: OneManArmy

Because evidently he doesn't want to say "Oh yeah, my null hypothesis wasn't rejected, sorry for the media fanfare!". Like others in this thread, he appears too invested to approach this with any measure of intellectual honesty.

It's there for all to see. It's daft to even deny the null hypothesis was failed to be rejected. Clearly some people are too emotionally invested in the idea of life after death to see this for what it is. Crappy science.

Well then prove it, make yourself famous, because this doctor is "fooling" the world right now.
His 4 years of study on this one subject and all those years at medical school are obviously inferior to your superior intellect.

The fact is we still dont know, so acting like you know just shows your own ignorance.
There are some things in life we will never know for sure.
And there will always be those that deny the elephant in the living room no matter how much evidence lands on their head.
The fact that many people from different religions and beliefs systems have very similar experiences counts for nothing eh?
Even though these NDE stories have been around for decades. SMH.

"There are some things in life we will never know for sure. " is a true statement, but it doesn't enable one to jump to any conclusion they desire just to make themselves feel better about their place in this Universe.

There have been experiments which manage to replicate these out of body experiences without requiring the patient to be close to death by stimulating certain parts of our brain. So yes, to me it still seems far more likely that all these experiences are just part of how our brain operates under certain conditions.

Jumping to conclusions and saying that this sensation of floating around or seeing white light *must* mean that our mind somehow survives the demise of our physical bodies and there's "this other side" is on the wishful thinking side. We understand so little about this phenomenon even after, as you put it "decades of people having these NDE experiences" yet somehow the believers jump to conclusion that it's not just in our brain which to me is a common sense explanation just like dreams.

To me taking a jump from "materialistic" worldview to "we have an immortal soul" takes a lot. It would be cool if it was true, I guess, but when you come to these kind of forums and see people casually talk about ghosts as if it's a standard and accepted phenomenon, it's hard not to be sceptical.

Maybe I'll experience something like that myself and change my view, who knows. But I also know how easily we are capable of fooling ourselves when we want to, there are so many various aspects to our psychology that skews our perception of "reality".

originally posted by: TheCable
when you come to these kind of forums and see people casually talk about ghosts as if it's a standard and accepted phenomenon, it's hard not to be sceptical.

Maybe I'll experience something like that myself and change my view, who knows. But I also know how easily we are capable of fooling ourselves when we want to, there are so many various aspects to our psychology that skews our perception of "reality".

Some things will only be accepted when you see them for yourself, even then maybe not. Especially if its something that doesnt fit our world view.

If I had never seen a ghost I would also scoff at the idea. Same with UFO's.
I have seen UFO's on two occasions, does this mean I believe in aliens....NO.
I have never seen an alien.
I understand where you are coming from, yet you talk of jumping to conclusions, while jumping to your own.
All Im saying is dont take ANYTHING for granted. The depth of brainwashing and misdirection of modern society is so pervasive and vast that I wonder what to believe anymore.

a reply to: neoholographic

This is getting rather silly now. You'll cherry pick any fatally flawed study that you can use to validate your beliefs and reject any legitimate criticisms that pop this bubble of belief.

"Even though, by the author's very own null hypothesis, the study failed, it actually succeeded!"

This is daft beyond belief.

a reply to: OneManArmy

The proof is in the paper! The paper debunks itself. The fact that the doctor is fooling the world right now says more about the sorry state of science reporting and the scientific illiteracy and credulity of certain members of the general public than anything else. No surprise here.

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: OneManArmy

The proof is in the paper! The paper debunks itself.

Like I said the lead doctor doesnt think so. You better let him know.
Hes making a fool of himself.

a reply to: OneManArmy

It doesn't matter what the lead doctor thinks, his own research has failed to reject his very own null hypothesis. How many times does this need to be pointed out? Scientists are just as capable of failing to be intellectually honest about their research as anyone else.

Hes making a fool of himself.

Evidently not in the eyes of his credulous supporters.

a reply to: OneManArmy

Just an fyi, sleep paralysis isn't evidence of ghost encounters. It is likely you were just still dreaming at the same time you entered your sleep paralysis state. In fact sleep paralysis is a type of lucid dreaming. Note the connotation of "dreaming" on the end of that phrase.

Sleep Paralysis

Sleep paralysis is a phenomenon in which a person, either falling asleep or awakening, temporarily experiences an inability to move, speak or react. It is a transitional state between wakefulness and sleep characterized by complete muscle atonia (muscle weakness). It is often accompanied by terrifying hallucinations (such as an intruder in the room) to which one is unable to react due to paralysis, and physical experiences (such as strong current running through the upper body). One theory is that it results from disrupted REM sleep, which normally induces complete muscle atonia to prevent the sleeper from acting out his or her dreams. Sleep paralysis has been linked to disorders such as narcolepsy, migraines, anxiety disorders, and obstructive sleep apnea; however, it can also occur in isolation.[1][2]

Note the point about hallucinations. You may not have experienced a terrifying hallucination because it was someone you recognized, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a hallucination.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: OneManArmy

Just an fyi, sleep paralysis isn't evidence of ghost encounters. It is likely you were just still dreaming at the same time you entered your sleep paralysis state. In fact sleep paralysis is a type of lucid dreaming. Note the connotation of "dreaming" on the end of that phrase.

Sleep Paralysis

Sleep paralysis is a phenomenon in which a person, either falling asleep or awakening, temporarily experiences an inability to move, speak or react. It is a transitional state between wakefulness and sleep characterized by complete muscle atonia (muscle weakness). It is often accompanied by terrifying hallucinations (such as an intruder in the room) to which one is unable to react due to paralysis, and physical experiences (such as strong current running through the upper body). One theory is that it results from disrupted REM sleep, which normally induces complete muscle atonia to prevent the sleeper from acting out his or her dreams. Sleep paralysis has been linked to disorders such as narcolepsy, migraines, anxiety disorders, and obstructive sleep apnea; however, it can also occur in isolation.[1][2]

Note the point about hallucinations. You may not have experienced a terrifying hallucination because it was someone you recognized, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a hallucination.

I know full well what sleep paralysis is.
But tell me why the random hallucinations of an 8 year old boy would be of his, unknown to him, dead aunt, waving goodbye of all things.

The hallucination wasnt terrifying. It was strange, I had much more terrifying episodes in that house. Mostly due to recurring dreams and the fact that the house was haunted. How do I know the house was haunted?
Because I stopped having the bad dreams and weird experiences when we left it.
Well I have only ever had one or two "bad" dreams ever since I left that house. I used to tell my mum of an old man that used to come sit on my bed and tell me stories at night, I was 3 yrs old.
The house was built on an old graveyard from the plague it later turned out, once I was at secondary school and we learned about the history of the area.
I lived less than 2 miles from where the famous "Green Street Poltergeist" events occurred.